Episode 12
Episode 12: Teresa Caro - Transformational Leadership in Marketing
Passionate about how new media and technologies create opportunities for brands and impact the overall customer experience, Teresa is a sought-after thought leader. Both an author and speaker, Teresa has been quoted in leading publications like Harvard Business Review, USA Today, NPR, and Forbes on how businesses can succeed in our evolving digital marketplace. She speaks at numerous marketing events, including CMOUS, Mediapost, and AdTech. Her work has been recognized by leading awards such as Cannes Lions, Clio Awards, One Show, Effie Awards, and Radio Mercury. Teresa worked with leading Publicis Groupe agencies such as Razorfish and Moxie before joining the Johnson Group as President in 2022.
In this episode of The Backstory on Marketing, Teresa speaks on the topic of transformational leadership in an ever changing industry, touching on the intersection of data and creativity. In addition, Teresa shares advice she gives to first-time CMOs and women leaders, stressing the importance of acting with confidence and seeking out mentors in all stages of one’s career.
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Transcript
Hi, I'm Guy Powell and welcome to the next episode
Guy Powell:of the Backstory on Marketing. If you haven't already done so,
Guy Powell:please visit Prorelevant.com and sign up for all of these
Guy Powell:episodes and podcasts. I am the author of the just released
Guy Powell:book, The Post-COVID Marketing Machine: prepare your team to
Guy Powell:win. You can find more information on this at marketing
Guy Powell:machine dot prorelevant.com. Today we'll be speaking with
Guy Powell:Teresa Caro. She is passionate about how new media and
Guy Powell:technologies create opportunities for brands and
Guy Powell:impact the overall customer experience. Theresa is a sought
Guy Powell:after thought leader. Both an author and speaker Teresa has
Guy Powell:been quoted in leading publications like Harvard
Guy Powell:Business Review, USA Today, NPR and Forbes on how businesses can
Guy Powell:succeed in an evolving digital marketplace. She speaks at
Guy Powell:numerous marketing events, including CMO US media posts and
Guy Powell:ad texts. Her work has been recognized by leading awards
Guy Powell:such as Cannes lion Clio awards, won show Effie awards and radio
Guy Powell:mercury. Teresa worked with leading publicist, publicists
Guy Powell:group agencies such as Razorfish and Moxie before joining now the
Guy Powell:Johnson group as president now in 2022. Welcome, Teresa.
Teresa Caro:Thank you, guy.
Guy Powell:Yeah, it's great to have you really appreciate it.
Guy Powell:And you've certainly got a great background. And so definitely
Guy Powell:looking forward to our chat. So tell us a more little bit more
Guy Powell:about how you got into marketing.
Teresa Caro:Well, I sort of fell into it. And yes, I'm going
Teresa Caro:to admit how old I am. In the early 90s, and as we discussed
Teresa Caro:last night, Guy, and your book launch in the early 90s, on the
Teresa Caro:east coast, and potentially the Midwest, going through some
Teresa Caro:difficult times. And so graduating school, I just took
Teresa Caro:the first job that I could find, thankfully, it was with Ford
Teresa Caro:Motor Company. But I realized very quickly that from a sales
Teresa Caro:perspective, that wasn't my jam. And working with consultants and
Teresa Caro:talking to a lot of people, I realized that I loved supporting
Teresa Caro:the sales process, through marketing, not so much being the
Teresa Caro:front end of it. So thus was born my marketing career. From
Teresa Caro:there, I discovered that I love brands, I've worked with a lot
Teresa Caro:of great brands, but I love the energy and the excitement and
Teresa Caro:the diversity of advertising agencies. So as you look through
Teresa Caro:my my resume my LinkedIn profile, you'll see various
Teresa Caro:things that I've done throughout my career. But I keep coming
Teresa Caro:back to the advertising agency world. And I'm excited that Joe
Teresa Caro:Johnson has invited me to help him lead his organization of 26
Teresa Caro:years- the Johnson group.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. So you were just named the
Guy Powell:president of the Johnson Group, but also the chief dragon slayer
Guy Powell:it looks like so group and, and how you're gonna slay some great
Guy Powell:dragons?
Teresa Caro:Well, we we definitely love slaying our
Teresa Caro:giants. Yes, we are an advertising and marketing firm.
Teresa Caro:We have been around for 26 years. And you may think with us
Teresa Caro:and yes, it says it right here. You may think that giant slaying
Teresa Caro:means that we are we help small brands compete against the big
Teresa Caro:brands. And and that's really the analogy of David and
Teresa Caro:Goliath. And that how we use that. But in reality, if you
Teresa Caro:look at the story between the Giant and David, this is really
Teresa Caro:a huge challenge that everyone was afraid to tackle, right. And
Teresa Caro:then David comes along with a very simple creative solution
Teresa Caro:and kills Italy's the Giant, right. And that's what the
Teresa Caro:Johnson Group has been doing for over two decades really working
Teresa Caro:with key brands, leaders in their space, and figuring out
Teresa Caro:who are their giants? Who do they need to slay? And how do we
Teresa Caro:come up with creative ideas to go about doing it? So it's very
Teresa Caro:exciting, but I'm able to join such a well-established
Teresa Caro:organization and help them take to help take them to the next
Teresa Caro:level.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. You know what, I really liked
Guy Powell:the analogy with David and Goliath kind of the young
Guy Powell:upstart versus the entrenched big leader and, and you know,
Guy Powell:it's interesting when you think about Goliath and and, you know,
Guy Powell:in the bigger brands and as a small brand, you're always
Guy Powell:afraid of the big brands because you think they're just going to
Guy Powell:crush you, but they're also just stuck in their own momentum. And
Guy Powell:you really do have the opportunity to slay dragons,
Guy Powell:slay dragons. And so I really liked that. That analogy.
Teresa Caro:Yeah, and it's not necessarily we work with some of
Teresa Caro:the big giants in the space. But what's interesting is, those
Teresa Caro:giants have their own giants. And you talk a lot about it in
Teresa Caro:your book, guys, it's that it's not only your competitors, but
Teresa Caro:some of those giants might be economic factors, cultural
Teresa Caro:shifts, brand misperceptions, because something that's going
Teresa Caro:on. And so how do we, how do we work with giants in the space to
Teresa Caro:help them overcome their own personal giants, it's a very
Teresa Caro:exciting time, especially now, there are a lot of nervous
Teresa Caro:people what's going on? Personally, I nerd out about the
Teresa Caro:space right now. Because we don't know where it's going. And
Teresa Caro:to try to get ahead of it and come up with those simple
Teresa Caro:creative solutions. That's where agency partners such as
Teresa Caro:ourselves really come into play.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I think it's not only creative nowadays,
Guy Powell:in terms of, you know, coming up with a great concept, you know,
Guy Powell:the Aflac Duck or whatever it happens to be. But it's also
Guy Powell:how, especially in digital how you mix that creative concept
Guy Powell:with how you actually bring it to the to the audience. And it's
Guy Powell:that combination of creativity on both sides, that I think that
Guy Powell:can really make a difference.
Teresa Caro:Yes, absolutely.
Guy Powell:Yeah. So I saw an article. And it's always
Guy Powell:interesting, you know, when you hear people talk about data, and
Guy Powell:I'm a data driven guy, my book is about data and building more
Guy Powell:a marketing machine on using data to really help drive sales
Guy Powell:through what marketing does and using analytics. And there was
Guy Powell:an article in media post, and there were a couple of things,
Guy Powell:which kind of stood out. And one was that, that CMOS 42% of the
Guy Powell:CMOS say that data can inhibit creativity. And then there's 41%
Guy Powell:that say exactly the opposite. And and so how do you see that?
Guy Powell:So can data driven companies? Or do you see data driven analytics
Guy Powell:really hindering? Or do you see it helping creativity?
Teresa Caro:So it's interesting one, it made me chuckle the
Teresa Caro:article, because 42% say one thing, and 41% said another, so
Teresa Caro:it was what was what the article was saying, except for the fact
Teresa Caro:that marketers can never agree, the thing that I did when when
Teresa Caro:you share the article with me, it's I'm a bit of a word nerd,
Teresa Caro:in that I have found through my career, that different people
Teresa Caro:define different words differently. So the first thing
Teresa Caro:I wanted to do is what does creativity mean? And and if you
Teresa Caro:look at it, the definition of creativity is actually pretty
Teresa Caro:dull. I'll read to you for a second... defined is the
Teresa Caro:tendency to generate or recognize ideas, alternatives,
Teresa Caro:or possibilities that may be useful in solving problems,
Teresa Caro:communicating with others, and entertaining ourselves and
Teresa Caro:others around her tell definition, when to say. And
Teresa Caro:then you have data. And that definition is factual
Teresa Caro:information, such as measurements or statistics, used
Teresa Caro:as a basis for reasoning, discussion or calculation. When
Teresa Caro:you combine those two things together, and yes, I'm pandering
Teresa Caro:to the interviewer here, you have a whole section in your
Teresa Caro:latest book around data, and how data doesn't necessarily mean
Teresa Caro:dashboards, you have a whole section on that and, and how
Teresa Caro:data means what's going on in the world. It means competitors,
Teresa Caro:like we just talked about it, I'd love to explore and whole
Teresa Caro:idea of how how culture can can be an important data point. And
Teresa Caro:then you take that, and and those are the data things, you
Teresa Caro:need someone smart enough to distill that down-tell a story.
Teresa Caro:And then spark creativity. So if you take like creativity, I
Teresa Caro:believe we can all agree creative is going back to what I
Teresa Caro:said in the beginning of what's the challenge that we're trying
Teresa Caro:to solve? What's the objective that we're trying to achieve?
Teresa Caro:And how do we go best doing it? And how do we make a difference,
Teresa Caro:and everyone else will data if used correctly, if not just
Teresa Caro:numbers, but other aspects are distilled down, you spark that
Teresa Caro:creativity, then great ideas come out of that. In terms of
Teresa Caro:the ones that say that it doesn't work, then my argument
Teresa Caro:would be then you don't have the right person distilling down the
Teresa Caro:data and really bringing it to life and something that gets
Teresa Caro:someone to be creative. There's nothing worse guy than white, I
Teresa Caro:call it blank paper syndrome. We all get in a room with all of
Teresa Caro:these blank whiteboards and sticky notes, and an assignment
Teresa Caro:brief which assignment briefs are important saying that we
Teresa Caro:need to increase sales by 20%. Here's our budget. And we have
Teresa Caro:demographic data as you know, we're going after 35 to 55 year
Teresa Caro:old females. Okay. But what else? What makes this particular
Teresa Caro:audience important, unique? What cultural factors are going on?
Teresa Caro:What are the competitors doing? What's the wind space? How can
Teresa Caro:we really get the creative people in the room thinking
Teresa Caro:creatively, that's when it works. And at the Johnson group,
Teresa Caro:we like to say that we dig for big, well, we really dig into
Teresa Caro:the insights and pull out something unique that no one
Teresa Caro:else has thought of before. And then we come up with that
Teresa Caro:creative idea to differentiate us or our, our partners from the
Teresa Caro:rest of their competitive some really achieve those objectives.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I think, to your point about
Guy Powell:understanding, well, first of all, the definition of creative
Guy Powell:versus the definition of data, but really, really good creative
Guy Powell:is also many times has the foundation of good data. And
Guy Powell:data doesn't necessarily mean numb. I mean, of course, it
Guy Powell:means numbers, but it doesn't necessarily mean we sold, you
Guy Powell:know, 20 units last week, and we're gonna sell 21 This week,
Guy Powell:and things like that. But when I think of data, and great,
Guy Powell:absolutely great creative, I think back at the Campaign for
Guy Powell:Real Beauty With, with Dove and with Unilever. And when they did
Guy Powell:the research, they came up with these, this concept of self
Guy Powell:esteem for basically teenage girls, and the lack that they
Guy Powell:have. And they then use that one piece of data, and then blew it
Guy Powell:out of the really blew it out with their whole campaign for
Guy Powell:real beauty. And I think that's, that is a great example where on
Guy Powell:the one hand, you're using the data, you're using the research,
Guy Powell:and then you're driving your creative based on that, that
Guy Powell:critical research.
Teresa Caro:And that's a key thing, guy, because how many
Teresa Caro:people when they see the word data, or they hear the word
Teresa Caro:data, think numbers? No, there was no numbers in in the real
Teresa Caro:beauty inside this is really understanding what's going on
Teresa Caro:culturally, in the world. And, and that was the beginning of
Teresa Caro:this, the self image of, of filters and, and just altering
Teresa Caro:of what truly is real beauty and really leaning into that to the
Teresa Caro:point that now dove is known for real beauty, you say real
Teresa Caro:beauty, you think stuff you don't think anybody else. And so
Teresa Caro:they truly owned that space through a key insight through
Teresa Caro:that data point. That wasn't actually a number.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And then they also transition
Guy Powell:that not only for the young, but also for I don't know if I want
Guy Powell:to use the word old, because I don't consider. But then they
Guy Powell:also have, you know, be comfortable in the skin you're
Guy Powell:in. And and all of those insights and all of that and I
Guy Powell:do cold I just like you do I call that data as well. That is
Guy Powell:just critical stuff to know. And then when you're putting that
Guy Powell:that creative together to really understand how your consumers or
Guy Powell:how they how the culture is affecting your consumers how
Guy Powell:you're advertising and messaging, and then how they are
Guy Powell:going to respond to that. I think that's, that's really,
Guy Powell:really critical.
Teresa Caro:Great. Great.
Guy Powell:Yeah, so Well, let's change the topic here a little
Guy Powell:bit. So tell us what's it like? And what kind of advice would
Guy Powell:you give to a brand new client side CMO?
Teresa Caro:Oh, yes, well, first, no pressure. Brand new
Teresa Caro:CMOS only lasted about six months. First time, CMOs only
Teresa Caro:lasted about six months. So the biggest advice I would give to a
Teresa Caro:first time CMO is hire an executive. That is the first
Teresa Caro:thing that you do, you're going to need that that trusted
Teresa Caro:sounding board to get you through it. Know that it's going
Teresa Caro:to be fun. The first 3045 days, everybody's excited that you're
Teresa Caro:there. They believe that you're going to solve a lot of things,
Teresa Caro:know that it's going to be hard. That second phase is truly hard.
Teresa Caro:Because you are going to bring in new ideas that no one else
Teresa Caro:has thought of you are going to be investing in change. And
Teresa Caro:sometimes that change impacts people and their jobs. They're
Teresa Caro:your peers. You're your own boss because your own boss has a
Teresa Caro:preconceived notion of who you are and what he or she expects
Teresa Caro:of you. And then you even your own employees, you will in order
Teresa Caro:to make an impact which you've probably been asked to do, you
Teresa Caro:will have to make change and change is hard. Change is
Teresa Caro:painful. Change is stressful. But then the third thing is no
Teresa Caro:one's if you are confident in yourself. You take the time to
Teresa Caro:hear people out. You Do you do that, that bridge building that
Teresa Caro:consensus building that, that storytelling, once you get
Teresa Caro:through the hard part over the other side, it's, it's really,
Teresa Caro:really a fabulous, fabulous time I have throughout my career
Teresa Caro:either both on the brand side and on the agency side, being
Teresa Caro:considered that transformational leader, that growth leader, I'm
Teresa Caro:usually not brought in to replace someone I'm usually
Teresa Caro:brought into, to grow something to change something. And that's
Teresa Caro:really what I've seen. And I'm in that second phase at the
Teresa Caro:Johnson group now, and every single one of the people at the
Teresa Caro:Johnson group would say love to have Theresa here, but change is
Teresa Caro:hard. But I have learned and I have grown confident in the fact
Teresa Caro:that once I get over that hump, what's really going to be smooth
Teresa Caro:sailing from there, and very, very exciting.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and it's actually interesting, I kind of
Guy Powell:think about a brand manager, if the brand manager is not
Guy Powell:bringing about change and disruption in the marketplace
Guy Powell:with the consumers of their brands, then they will most
Guy Powell:likely not be successful, if they're just gonna go steady
Guy Powell:state make no changes, then they're more or less on the way
Guy Powell:down. So they're, they're incentivized to make changes.
Guy Powell:But the difference then for the CMO, especially a new CMO, or a
Guy Powell:first time CMO, is you're know, you're not only making changes
Guy Powell:on the outside, but you have to make changes on the inside. And,
Guy Powell:and making changes to the team and making changes to the
Guy Powell:broader team, which is the whole company. And those changes are
Guy Powell:very, very painful. So I really like your point. And, and I like
Guy Powell:your point as well about having an executive coach, because you
Guy Powell:finally have a person that you can really trust as a trusted
Guy Powell:adviser that doesn't have any skin in the game, other than to
Guy Powell:make you successful. And that really makes a lot of sense.
Teresa Caro:Absolutely, absolutely. And it's interesting
Teresa Caro:that you've pointed out, Guy, that it is external change, but
Teresa Caro:also an internal change. I have found throughout my career, and
Teresa Caro:it's no different now it's people focus on the work, how
Teresa Caro:are you going to improve the that that deliverable itself,
Teresa Caro:people forget that in order to improve about on that
Teresa Caro:deliverable, you need to clear the way. For those creative, we
Teresa Caro:just talked about creative, you need to clear the way for those
Teresa Caro:people to do some great creative thinking, you need to set them
Teresa Caro:up for success, you need to get them the right tools. Which
Teresa Caro:means really, the first step of being successful is people
Teresa Caro:process and plumbing, really evaluating those and getting
Teresa Caro:them in the right place. That takes time, you may move as
Teresa Caro:quickly as you can to get those fixed, but it's not fast enough.
Teresa Caro:And so there'll be a lot of pressure for you to skip to the
Teresa Caro:work itself. You use the real beauty example in that cmo went
Teresa Caro:on to Burger King. And now he's gone on to do other things. I
Teresa Caro:have a huge fan of his real beauty was there before he got
Teresa Caro:there. So it hadn't really taken off, can you imagine the amount
Teresa Caro:of pressure he must have been on to make that hugely successful?
Teresa Caro:Burger King, the same thing, they took a risk to do something
Teresa Caro:within the Burger King app. So they could go up against
Teresa Caro:McDonald's from what I read. And obviously it wasn't there. Nor
Teresa Caro:was I lucky enough to be part of that agency. But it took over a
Teresa Caro:year more of development. That's if we're if we move slow, if we
Teresa Caro:go slow to go fast, which is a great link and President Lincoln
Teresa Caro:quote, now you're gonna make an impact. And so going back to
Teresa Caro:your original question of how do you become a successful CMO,
Teresa Caro:stick your stick to your guns, be patient, be thoughtful. And
Teresa Caro:also just make sure people come along for the ride. They
Teresa Caro:understand what you what you are doing. You do have all of those
Teresa Caro:ingredients. That is a true recipe for success.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I, I like you're one of the statistics you
Guy Powell:gave before for a new CMO-a first time CMO- their average
Guy Powell:tenure is six months. I hadn't heard that one. Normally it's
Guy Powell:it's been over the last couple of years, maybe 24 months, I
Guy Powell:guess for a seasoned CMO, maybe longer for a more seasoned CMO.
Guy Powell:And one of the interesting things about six months is if
Guy Powell:you're a new CMO, and you only have six months tenure to be
Guy Powell:able to then prove yourself to get that seven month you're
Guy Powell:unfortunately inheriting everything that the guy before
Guy Powell:you was fired for your change your speed to make changes
Guy Powell:significant and meaningful changes is really really under
Guy Powell:the gun for that number one and number two, you know you have to
Guy Powell:then at least If you if you can't make changes fast enough,
Guy Powell:and certainly bigger brands are harder to make changes very
Guy Powell:quickly, you have to then really develop that vision in the first
Guy Powell:six months so that you can buy that, that seven month in that
Guy Powell:eighth month,
Teresa Caro:I would argue that vision needs to be defined
Teresa Caro:within the first couple of months. That's, that's really,
Teresa Caro:yeah, gonna be cute and get any everybody behind that vision.
Teresa Caro:And understanding the steps in that vision, you do not have a
Teresa Caro:lot of time to do that. And marketing is one of those things
Teresa Caro:that we've always struggled with, and that everybody thinks
Teresa Caro:that they can do marketing. You try to argue with an accountant,
Teresa Caro:all of us know that we can't do accounting. But marketing,
Teresa Caro:everybody feels like they can, they can do it. And so everybody
Teresa Caro:questions, everything that you're doing. We've spoken Guy
Teresa Caro:and pass conversations about when budgets are cut, and
Teresa Caro:usually cut from marketing first. And so making sure,
Teresa Caro:again, people process some plumbing, making sure your
Teresa Caro:plumbing since in place, so when the CEO comes to you saying we
Teresa Caro:need to cut $3 million, you can say very, very quickly and
Teresa Caro:succinctly will, based on this report, if you cut 3 million,
Teresa Caro:you're going to impact X number of million in revenue. That's
Teresa Caro:the plumbing piece. So making sure the right people are in
Teresa Caro:place, making sure that there's a process in place. So those
Teresa Caro:people can be successful and making sure the plumbing is in
Teresa Caro:place. So you can be successful you have the data, you have the
Teresa Caro:information to show that you are making an impact on the
Teresa Caro:organization. And if you are any member, or any budget dollar
Teresa Caro:goes away, there is a direct impact on the organization
Teresa Caro:itself.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and that is a and that's kind of what our
Guy Powell:business is about connecting marketing to selling and
Guy Powell:connecting marketing to actual incremental sales. And and
Guy Powell:that's a critical piece. And I used to we used to work with
Guy Powell:Donna people's a long time ago when she was in Atlanta Gas
Guy Powell:Light. And she did exactly like what you're saying the CEO came
Guy Powell:to her and said, Listen, we need to cut a million dollars out of
Guy Powell:your budget. And she says okay, yeah, no problem, then we need
Guy Powell:to cut, you know, whatever it was $20 million in sales out of
Guy Powell:the sales budget. And the CEO said, Oh, we don't?
Teresa Caro:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guy Powell:So we went to the next C suite, so to speak, and
Guy Powell:took it somewhere else. And you know what, it's funny, too. It
Guy Powell:is really unfortunate that quite often companies think about
Guy Powell:cutting marketing first. And and even now with the hints of a
Guy Powell:recession and the hints of reflect inflation. You know,
Guy Powell:we're seeing that in the industry where the the marketers
Guy Powell:are then doing everything they can to defend their budgets, and
Guy Powell:realizing that even though maybe their effectiveness of their
Guy Powell:marketing might go down in the recession, it's still better
Guy Powell:than not doing the marketing at all. And that's a really
Guy Powell:critical argument for the for the whole marketing team.
Teresa Caro:Well, and it's so interesting that you use the
Teresa Caro:Donna people's example, I've had similar experiences being on the
Teresa Caro:agency side where the agency budgets are cut, and we're all
Teresa Caro:disappointed and annoyed. And my point back to my team was, well,
Teresa Caro:then we didn't do our job proving that we were making an
Teresa Caro:impact that we were just spending the the clients money.
Teresa Caro:And yes, it looked pretty. And we received a lot of engagement.
Teresa Caro:But the numbers that mattered. We were looking at the metrics,
Teresa Caro:the things that we tested and optimized and improved over
Teresa Caro:time. But the numbers that mattered, the key performance
Teresa Caro:indicators, we weren't rolling that back up and showing in a
Teresa Caro:way that the CEOs understand and appreciate how that's going to
Teresa Caro:make an impact. CEOs know that they need social media, and they
Teresa Caro:need to be engaging with their audiences. But when it comes
Teresa Caro:down to tightening that bell, and they're starting to ask why
Teresa Caro:it's like, okay, that was a nice to have, not a need to have. So
Teresa Caro:that's not going away. We all know intuitively as marketers
Teresa Caro:that when that piece goes away, brand awareness goes away, and
Teresa Caro:we lose control of the brand perception message. We know that
Teresa Caro:intuitively, but an intuition doesn't pay the bills and
Teresa Caro:doesn't get what the CEO needs for his or her board of
Teresa Caro:directors. We need that definitive proof that when this
Teresa Caro:goes away, then this will also go away. So why not get the
Teresa Caro:pieces in place, get the plumbing in place, do the
Teresa Caro:turning off turning on tests before that actually happens? So
Teresa Caro:you control the message before the message controls? Yeah.
Guy Powell:Yeah, how true and it's interesting that you, you
Guy Powell:bring up the CEO and the board and so the CEO is coming to you
Guy Powell:and saying, Well what happens If we cut, and if, as the CMO or as
Guy Powell:the agency, if you don't have the answer that says, yes, let's
Guy Powell:cut a million dollars out, and we're going to lose 20 million
Guy Powell:in sales. The CEO needs that argument, because his job is
Guy Powell:just as much on the line when he goes to the board and says,
Guy Powell:Well, it, yes, we're going to have to cut somewhere. But if we
Guy Powell:cut marketing, not only are we going to lose the 20 million,
Guy Powell:and then to your point as well, we're also going to lose the
Guy Powell:future. Because you've marketing to not only drive sales in the
Guy Powell:short term, but you need marketing to drive sales in the
Guy Powell:future, and cutting off your brand. Investments is a sure way
Guy Powell:to then cut off that that future that you might have once you
Guy Powell:come out of that recession. Great. Right. Absolutely. So
Guy Powell:yeah, great point. So. So now, switching topics just a little
Guy Powell:bit. So what kind of advice would you give to a female
Guy Powell:leader?
Teresa Caro:Oh, wow, do we have a whole other podcast guy?
Guy Powell:We do we do. We could certainly continue this.
Guy Powell:But let's, let's go from there and see what we've got.
Teresa Caro:It's so interesting. Being a female
Teresa Caro:leader, I so I'm a member of chief, which is a for profit
Teresa Caro:organization, really focused on bringing curating female leaders
Teresa Caro:that you have to be an actual certain level of leader for a
Teresa Caro:certain amount of, of years to be first invited. And then yes,
Teresa Caro:it's a it's a paid membership, I bring that up. Because
Teresa Caro:yesterday, we had this great, amazing session around executive
Teresa Caro:presence. And, and what's fun about this is, is with Zoom, you
Teresa Caro:get to do, you get to hear the presenter, but then you get to
Teresa Caro:chat with everybody, to the to the side, and it was really just
Teresa Caro:an overall great dialogue. And what we were bringing up is how
Teresa Caro:to be your authentic self of how women are known to talk too
Teresa Caro:much, or our squeaky voices, or we can't be heard or we're too
Teresa Caro:defensive, or we were too aggressive. And what she was
Teresa Caro:recommending is really be your authentic self, which to a
Teresa Caro:certain point, I agree. But I also because I've spent so much
Teresa Caro:time in the agency and consulting world. I'm a big
Teresa Caro:believer of mirroring that person as well. And so why do I
Teresa Caro:bring up all of these things, it's really this idea of
Teresa Caro:communication. As a female leader, as any leader,
Teresa Caro:especially in the agency and consulting space, how you
Teresa Caro:position yourself, how you hold yourself, how you communicate,
Teresa Caro:is incredibly important. I don't care if you're male or female,
Teresa Caro:you can't come across as defensive, I don't care if
Teresa Caro:you're male or female, female, you can't use crutch words, or
Teresa Caro:speak too quickly, or use lingo. And really doesn't matter if
Teresa Caro:you're male or female. If you work for me, I will call it my
Teresa Caro:taboo session. And all of my employees for past years are now
Teresa Caro:laughing right now, as they listen to me. We all sit in a
Teresa Caro:room, they get to pick a topic that they can present on, it
Teresa Caro:doesn't matter what it is, can be something they're comfortable
Teresa Caro:with that they enjoy. And then it needs to be one of those. You
Teresa Caro:know how it works. It's 20 slides five minutes, and the
Teresa Caro:slides automatically progress. And I get to be the person back
Teresa Caro:of the room with the taboo. But the moment you start speaking
Teresa Caro:too quickly, or you're using too many crutch words or lingo, I
Teresa Caro:buzzed you, and what was really interesting ended up being a
Teresa Caro:guy, he got so frustrated with me that he was sarcastically
Teresa Caro:slowing himself down to the point that I stopped it and
Teresa Caro:said, Okay, now what does everybody think of this guy? And
Teresa Caro:they said, Wow, he sounds amazing. He sounds so
Teresa Caro:authoritative. Yes, communication is key. I don't
Teresa Caro:care if you're female or a male. If you are going to be growing
Teresa Caro:up in this business as an executive, you need to learn how
Teresa Caro:to hold yourself, you need to take a position of authority of
Teresa Caro:competence. The next time I hear a researcher interviewed on NPR,
Teresa Caro:a female researcher interviewed on NPR about her research and
Teresa Caro:she says, I think I will explode. Never say I think she
Teresa Caro:has spent five years doing this research. She knows it is what
Teresa Caro:it is it says it in the data. And so having that taking that
Teresa Caro:that position of power is is the number one thing that you can
Teresa Caro:do. I don't care if you're male or female.
Teresa Caro:Shifting more to a female perspective. Yes, there are
Teresa Caro:going to be things that either in reality or in perception,
Teresa Caro:things like mansplaining and and gaslighting and all of those
Teresa Caro:kinds of areas and you're going to be frustrated. Come up with
Teresa Caro:techniques, there's a lot of great articles out there, again,
Teresa Caro:hiring an executive coach, join a membership and take lessons,
Teresa Caro:there are techniques that you can use that again, put you in
Teresa Caro:position of authority, you are going to have that mansplaining
Teresa Caro:kind of thing or someone who's, who doesn't listen to your idea.
Teresa Caro:But as soon as the guy says it, there's that perception that
Teresa Caro:everybody's now listening to him, well use techniques to say,
Teresa Caro:George, I'm really happy that you shined a spotlight on that
Teresa Caro:idea that I just talked about, let me even take that a step
Teresa Caro:further and go back to these points that were saying. So
Teresa Caro:that's, again, it may be my point number two, but it does
Teresa Caro:really come back to communication and communication
Teresa Caro:style. And, and again, not being defensive, but going in with a
Teresa Caro:position of authority and confidence. And, you know, I
Teresa Caro:think three is just find your people. Those people can be men,
Teresa Caro:those people can be women, I have found a lot of great
Teresa Caro:mentors in men, a lot of great organizations, there's a great
Teresa Caro:IBM example that I use, that will bring me to my final point
Teresa Caro:guy on on what to do is around this idea of having confidence
Teresa Caro:in yourself. I attended an an IBM session once. And IBM is
Teresa Caro:doing a really great job in cultivating their female
Teresa Caro:leaders. And one of those leaders, a man tells a story
Teresa Caro:about how he had a job opening. And it really came down to two
Teresa Caro:people, a man who had maybe you're enough experience and a
Teresa Caro:woman that if you looked at if you checked all the boxes, she
Teresa Caro:checked, every single one of the boxes, and they're both up for
Teresa Caro:this position. The woman just happened to be part of this,
Teresa Caro:this cultivating female leaders program. So she had a mentor.
Teresa Caro:And this leader comes back to the mentor and says, let me
Teresa Caro:explain to you what just happened. The guy came in and
Teresa Caro:said, I can do this job here this, here's the skill set I
Teresa Caro:have how this is how it translate, Uber confident was
Teresa Caro:all in, he can do it. The woman came in and said, I don't know,
Teresa Caro:am I ready? Do I really have all the skill set, maybe I need a
Teresa Caro:couple more years of experience. That happens time and time
Teresa Caro:again, we we keep saying that we want equal rights that we want
Teresa Caro:equal opportunity? Well, we are now being given equal
Teresa Caro:opportunity. And many times because of our imposter
Teresa Caro:syndrome, our self doubt, we don't take it we don't there's
Teresa Caro:been females that I have given opportunities to even recently,
Teresa Caro:and those females didn't take it because they didn't think they
Teresa Caro:were ready. And that that's an issue. And we really need to
Teresa Caro:work on that. So she's
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I, I have seen that. And I unfortunately,
Guy Powell:I've seen that so many times, where, you know, the so as an
Guy Powell:example, and this kind of gets outside of marketing, but my
Guy Powell:son's big into climbing. And he rented this movie and the movie
Guy Powell:had individuals doing some really interesting climbing
Guy Powell:feet, you know, a rock wall or a bridge or this or that. And, and
Guy Powell:the men were just confident and say, well, there's going to be a
Guy Powell:problem here or problem there. But I think I know how to get
Guy Powell:around it. And and the women were exactly like you're saying
Guy Powell:is I don't know if we can do this, you know, they they they
Guy Powell:often tried it but the first thing out of their mouth was
Guy Powell:that lack of confidence. And and you know, it's it's not I don't
Guy Powell:know what causes that but you would you would think that in
Guy Powell:college or something they were maybe even in high school if
Guy Powell:somebody has to then you know, have a have a thing that says
Guy Powell:okay, you know, women, you have to do this, and you have to you
Guy Powell:have to show confidence. Now the men of course, were faultless,
Guy Powell:except for all the other faults. And we need the same kind of
Guy Powell:thing except different. And that's actually a piece that
Guy Powell:you're talking about. I hate to say it I I think you're right.
Guy Powell:Yeah, it's it's it unfortunately happens to where you have a
Guy Powell:woman that is much more qualified and yet they they do
Guy Powell:have that reticence to say that yes, I'm ready to it. So
Teresa Caro:Yeah. And that's, that's really what it comes down
Teresa Caro:to. So if any of your listeners are female, and would like some
Teresa Caro:mentoring, please reach out to me, you can find me on all the
Teresa Caro:social medias.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I and be honest with you, as part of the
Guy Powell:AMA the American, the American Marketing Association here in
Guy Powell:Atlanta. I've been a mentor, I don't know for three or four
Guy Powell:years now. And I think it's the it's the most fun thing that I
Guy Powell:do to help young marketers both both male and female. And, and,
Guy Powell:and that's one of the big things as well. And so, and even, you
Guy Powell:know, whether it's whether it's your own employees or whether
Guy Powell:it's Yeah, you know, outsiders like mentees or whatever, you
Guy Powell:know, I think, you know, helping people to get that confidence
Guy Powell:that yes, they can do the job and, okay, they may have some
Guy Powell:doubts on one area. But yes, you know, go for it, go for it, go
Guy Powell:for it. So,
Teresa Caro:Right, well and shout out to AMA in the
Teresa Caro:mentor-mentee program. Shout out to Joanne Harold. She was my
Teresa Caro:mentor. I was gonna teach myself. I was working on I was
Teresa Caro:in marketing. So I had figured out that I wanted to do
Teresa Caro:marketing. And I was at a fax machine. And at that time, AMA
Teresa Caro:was faxing its announcement, announcements, words
Teresa Caro:mentor-mentee program, and I right away, I'm a big I was
Teresa Caro:always been taught to work with mentors. I don't know if it was
Teresa Caro:something my father taught me or something. And right away, I
Teresa Caro:signed up for it. And I actually wasn't assigned. Joanne
Teresa Caro:initially I was given another mentor. And we did this, I think
Teresa Caro:it was some kind of volunteer event. And we switched because
Teresa Caro:the guy was with was better with someone else. Joining was better
Teresa Caro:for me, and I am here today. Because of that, then those
Teresa Caro:opportunities that Joanne opened me up to and the coaching and
Teresa Caro:counseling that she has given to me throughout the years.
Guy Powell:Yeah, yeah, she's, she's definitely a great person
Guy Powell:to have as a mentor. And congratulations. That's so
Guy Powell:that's so fantastic that she was able to help you. Wow. So we've
Guy Powell:talked about kind of the new CMOs and, and what their
Guy Powell:challenges are. And we've talked about female leaders. There's
Guy Powell:one other dimension that goes into marketing, and that is the
Guy Powell:pace of change. And I like to say, you know, it's it's not
Guy Powell:just that change is happening all the time. It's that
Guy Powell:accelerated change is now happening all the time, that
Guy Powell:time between a new technology and a new capability seems to be
Guy Powell:shortening and shortening. And I think the the good news is that
Guy Powell:that leaves a lot of opportunity for marketers that can figure
Guy Powell:out how to use it early on. But, but just staying up with that.
Guy Powell:So what what do you recommend to the marketing leaders today in
Guy Powell:terms of how they should handle the disruptive technologies and
Guy Powell:the new technologies that are that are streaming right in
Guy Powell:front of them?
Teresa Caro:Well, I would say, don't panic, just because we're
Teresa Caro:using the word disruptive doesn't necessarily mean that
Teresa Caro:it's going to be fast if we think about personally
Teresa Caro:identifiable information, because I would when you asked
Teresa Caro:me to answer this question, guys started doing some research on a
Teresa Caro:lot of the latest technologies out there that are sometimes in
Teresa Caro:some ways, helping marketers and other ways hurting marketers in
Teresa Caro:this whole idea of haves and have nots. You know, I reached
Teresa Caro:out to my CTO about this to see what he was thinking of. And he
Teresa Caro:brought up ad guard and pie hole and I wasn't going to use the
Teresa Caro:examples but I liked the opportunity being able to say
Teresa Caro:pie hole on your podcast, so I love this company name that
Teresa Caro:company vital. All of you will not forget what it is. But what
Teresa Caro:it is just before I move on, but these are companies that are
Teresa Caro:blocking client side, tracking implementations and forcing
Teresa Caro:companies to go server side it's this whole idea of what does a
Teresa Caro:third party cookieless future look like? That's become sort of
Teresa Caro:this tagline. This is something I think kind of dude, people are
Teresa Caro:gonna think I am so old after listening to podcasts. But do
Teresa Caro:you remember in 1999, the double click and abacus merger that
Teresa Caro:happened in 2000 All the lawsuits began. That's when I
Teresa Caro:started at Razorfish and Razorfish because of the the
Teresa Caro:drive, so drive PM, Razorfish and a third company that is I'm
Teresa Caro:forgetting, but really because Dr. pm was so focused on cookie
Teresa Caro:based tracking, and then you had Razorfish that was focused on
Teresa Caro:using that tracking, and because of abacus and and double click,
Teresa Caro:there was a lot of urgency around not connecting PII with
Teresa Caro:the cookies. Well, you fast forward to today, two decades
Teresa Caro:later, and that's really what's happening. And it's become so
Teresa Caro:easy to do that. And with great ease and great, actually results
Teresa Caro:comes great power, and it is used for nefarious purposes. And
Teresa Caro:so now the government's having to catch up and put in different
Teresa Caro:kinds of things like GDPR. Well, GDPR I don't know if you saw the
Teresa Caro:latest article, but a lot of the GDPR guidelines are going to be
Teresa Caro:rolled back and there's expected to be a billion pounds savings
Teresa Caro:for these companies because the amount that's been put on them
Teresa Caro:so it's just it's two decades now. added to a lot and and
Teresa Caro:there's a lot to think about and a lot of work to be put in
Teresa Caro:place, we were going to have complete, no third party
Teresa Caro:cookies. Thankfully, we got a little bit of a respite there.
Teresa Caro:But if you think about it, it's really only Google left, a lot
Teresa Caro:of the others Safari Firefox have already gotten rid of this.
Teresa Caro:So we say disruption, but there is many times there is a bit of
Teresa Caro:time to catch up, you just can't wait. Because if you do wait,
Teresa Caro:then it is going to be sudden, it is going to be expensive. And
Teresa Caro:it is going to be a wildfire that you're going to need to put
Teresa Caro:out so don't to to get back to your original question around
Teresa Caro:what should marketers do? Marketers should be looking out
Teresa Caro:to the future as much as they can. They should be looking at
Teresa Caro:the past and saying what can we learn from the past. And then
Teresa Caro:they should be applying that to the future. An example of past
Teresa Caro:or future is if you look at Google, when I grew up, and
Teresa Caro:Google was big search engine optimization all out, I'll go
Teresa Caro:the rhythms, all organic traffic, that was 100%, of what
Teresa Caro:they did. And that's still very much in play today. Heck, third
Teresa Caro:school SEO agencies focused on that. But at one point, Google
Teresa Caro:realized that they could charge people and they could do paid
Teresa Caro:advertising. And so then paid became a big part of the
Teresa Caro:algorithm. Fast forward to Facebook. Well, those of us that
Teresa Caro:went through the Google could see what was going to happen
Teresa Caro:with Facebook with Twitter, Pinterest, every time one of
Teresa Caro:those social media platforms comes out and says they're not
Teresa Caro:going to do paid. We don't believe them. And so learning
Teresa Caro:from the past and applying that to the future will help you be
Teresa Caro:prepared for the future. Seeing that Firefox and Safari have
Teresa Caro:eliminated cookies and don't have to fact check. I believe
Teresa Caro:I'm correct on that right guy. That's what Yeah, yeah. So
Teresa Caro:knowing that they've already done that, doesn't that lead you
Teresa Caro:to believe that Google's going to be doing the same? And so
Teresa Caro:thinking about where you're supposed to be going in order to
Teresa Caro:address that? Don't wait, because what feels like
Teresa Caro:disruptive isn't necessarily disruptive, you starting to see
Teresa Caro:the signs COVID, with people wanting to actually order food
Teresa Caro:and get it delivered to you. Companies had been starting to
Teresa Caro:prepare for that. And thankfully, thankfully,
Teresa Caro:companies like churches, had already hired people like Alan
Teresa Caro:to actually fix that now, Allen's budget went from a nice
Teresa Caro:to have to Oh, my goodness, fix it now. But can disruptive isn't
Teresa Caro:as disruptive as we think it is disruptive is only truly
Teresa Caro:disruptive and equaling urgent, if we let it be that way, we
Teresa Caro:need to always be looking at the past and figuring out how it
Teresa Caro:will impact our future.
Guy Powell:Well, that's an interesting point I and I do
Guy Powell:like that. But so does that then mean that the marketing leader,
Guy Powell:the CMO needs to have a function, which is marketing
Guy Powell:technology. So that someone maybe it's not a full time or
Guy Powell:maybe it is for a larger brand. But somebody then that is really
Guy Powell:tracking and making certain that the company is staying up to
Guy Powell:date with whatever those those changes in technologies are
Guy Powell:going to be? Well, traditionally,
Teresa Caro:that's been why agencies still exist. Every time
Teresa Caro:there's articles going out saying that agencies are going
Teresa Caro:to go away. I am hesitant to say that that's a good idea. Yes.
Teresa Caro:Will your partnership with your agency shift? Should agencies so
Teresa Caro:let's use an agency example. The commoditization of social media,
Teresa Caro:community management, brands are going to figure out that it's a
Teresa Caro:lot less expensive to hire a 55 $60,000 resorts to do the day to
Teresa Caro:day community support for their social media, not hire an
Teresa Caro:agency. And the agencies from a strategic perspective, need to
Teresa Caro:be those partners to help prepare the brand's been saying
Teresa Caro:for several years now how are you? What are the steps you're
Teresa Caro:taking? In order to prepare for this cookieless future? Let's
Teresa Caro:get your cars, your first party data all in one place. let's
Teresa Caro:consolidate your data, your customer data into one
Teresa Caro:warehouse? Let's start considering CDP's. Let's start
Teresa Caro:looking at these things. I've been talking about that since
Teresa Caro:I've been at Atlanta codes because I knew it was coming.
Teresa Caro:And so let's prepare for it. So we have several years to prepare
Teresa Caro:for it. Not...okay, it's time and Google's going away and your
Teresa Caro:advertising that you've been depending on was now out the
Teresa Caro:window. And so that's where agencies not to be self serving
Teresa Caro:because I lead an agency but that's where that's what you
Teresa Caro:should expect your agency partners to do is to be the
Teresa Caro:person that helps you look across your space, look at
Teresa Caro:culture and competitors and all those areas. It's also easier
Teresa Caro:for us to do it because we don't We deal with the same people
Teresa Caro:every day, we're looking across many different industries, many
Teresa Caro:different clients. So we actually have the benefit of, of
Teresa Caro:different things coming to us different questions being asked
Teresa Caro:different perspectives versus having to do that one set of
Teresa Caro:things every day.
Guy Powell:Yeah, interesting. And that is a great point in
Guy Powell:terms of having the agencies to be the external experts,
Guy Powell:because, and that's one of the challenges that we have as well.
Guy Powell:And I'm sure you have it as well as that we can have analysts
Guy Powell:working for us and and we could then be brought in house or
Guy Powell:analyze the they could do our work, they could do it in house.
Guy Powell:But those analysts in House wouldn't get the exposure that
Guy Powell:the that the agency person would have. Because the agents person
Guy Powell:just like ours, our our team, they're working across multiple
Guy Powell:clients across multiple industries and different
Guy Powell:challenges. And it's that advantage that we bring in
Guy Powell:certainly for an agency and certainly then for this, this
Guy Powell:element of, you know, following and tracking technology is
Guy Powell:definitely something that that that the technologists within
Guy Powell:the agency can really shine, as opposed to trying to do that
Guy Powell:internally. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So we're about
Guy Powell:towards the end here. And I could we could go on for hours,
Guy Powell:and always enjoyed talking with you, Theresa. One thing I do
Guy Powell:want to mention to the audience, my first book, which is over my
Guy Powell:shoulder right there, Theresa was one of my first editors, my
Guy Powell:my first beta reader, and she gave some really great advice.
Guy Powell:And I will never forget that and and I'm always thankful for
Guy Powell:that. And since that book, I've now written four more. So this
Guy Powell:last one is my my fifth book on the on marketing. And, and and I
Guy Powell:think it really is something that that really helps are can
Guy Powell:help marketers to improve their overall operations and prove
Guy Powell:them that they're delivering on the success that they have been
Guy Powell:charged with. So is there anything else that you'd like to
Guy Powell:mention or any comments that we left off or anything that comes
Guy Powell:to mind?
Teresa Caro:So a few things one is, Guy has been a great mentor
Teresa Caro:and partner to me throughout the years, go ahead and look at that
Teresa Caro:photo and see when that was and look at my LinkedIn profile. It
Teresa Caro:was a little itty bitty marketing manager backend back
Teresa Caro:then, I thought I knew it all. I'm realizing all these years
Teresa Caro:later, I didn't. But that guy's been someone who has been a
Teresa Caro:persistent part of my life. And a big part of helping me think
Teresa Caro:through marketing, return on marketing, investment, all of
Teresa Caro:those areas. So again, going back to your question about
Teresa Caro:female leaders in any leader, for that matter, having that
Teresa Caro:that partner in lots of different areas is is incredibly
Teresa Caro:important. So that's number one. Number two against again,
Teresa Caro:pandering to the interviewer, I was able to read guy's book
Teresa Caro:while I was I was traveling for volleyball this week. And it
Teresa Caro:will be something that I asked to surprise guys, the analytics
Teresa Caro:and strategy team, this is going to be required reading and
Teresa Caro:discussion group. I really love this version of guys book
Teresa Caro:because of that aspect that we covered quite thoroughly earlier
Teresa Caro:in this interview around the fact that data isn't just
Teresa Caro:numbers, data is research, it's insights, it's telling that
Teresa Caro:story in order to spark creativity, in order to make
Teresa Caro:sure that when the CEO comes to prove your budget, so she can go
Teresa Caro:with them back to her board and prove it to the board, making
Teresa Caro:sure you have those pieces in place. All of those things are
Teresa Caro:so important. And then my hope is is that at some point, we can
Teresa Caro:go back and have another discussion guy, I believe you
Teresa Caro:and I talked a lot about traditional versus digital and
Teresa Caro:full full funnel to really put a bow on that as we sum things up
Teresa Caro:for for your listeners is guy and I talked a lot about
Teresa Caro:agencies and brands and the partnership. We also talked
Teresa Caro:about people process plumbing, if you are a new leader, do your
Teresa Caro:best to break down the silos. Traditional is now becoming
Teresa Caro:digital, full funnel this idea of awareness and perception and
Teresa Caro:that impact and how it makes them performance based
Teresa Caro:marketing. We have grown up in these silos and the silos have
Teresa Caro:gotten worse. And we need to make sure to break down those
Teresa Caro:silos to truly become integrated. So if there's one
Teresa Caro:big takeaway coming from this interviews is really looking at
Teresa Caro:your current organization and see how can you make it more
Teresa Caro:integrated and more of an integrated approach so you can
Teresa Caro:set yourself up for success?
Guy Powell:Yeah, that's a good point and Thank you, and thank
Guy Powell:you so much for the endorsement, I really appreciate it you've
Guy Powell:been, you've also been a great person to bounce ideas off of
Guy Powell:over the years and, and really always appreciate your your
Guy Powell:input. But to your point, though, about the data silos,
Guy Powell:one of the things that, that marketing analytics if done,
Guy Powell:right, and there's a lot of people that don't do it, right,
Guy Powell:it has to break down the silos, because to your point, it's not
Guy Powell:just the the consumer data and the consumer research that has a
Guy Powell:data point or the you know, the the the other activities in the
Guy Powell:environment that are taking place, but it's also getting
Guy Powell:data from sales, from marketing, from operations from customer
Guy Powell:service, whatever it happens to be. And having that clean data
Guy Powell:across the entire organization is really the best way you can
Guy Powell:get the the best results so you can really drive the business,
Guy Powell:the business forward.
Teresa Caro:I agree wholeheartedly. Well said.
Guy Powell:Thank you. So yeah, Teresa, thank you so much. I
Guy Powell:really appreciate it. And with that, let me close so you can
Guy Powell:find more about the Johnson group at Johnsongroup.com
Guy Powell:Johnsongroup.com. That's where Teresa is now leading the charge
Guy Powell:and slaying those dragons. And otherwise, please stay tuned for
Guy Powell:many other videos in this series of the Backstory on Marketing,
Guy Powell:please visit marketingmachine. prorelevant.com to download this
Guy Powell:blog and you can also see it on the popular podcast providers
Guy Powell:such as Apple, Spotify, and many others. And if you do that,
Guy Powell:please rate it five stars and I'd really appreciate it
Guy Powell:otherwise. Thank you and Teresa, thank you so much.
