Episode 11
Episode 11: Joe Koufman - Chemistry in Marketing Matchmaking
About Joe:
Joe Koufman is responsible for introducing three married couples and countless business relationships. In early 2014, he parlayed his passion for connecting people with his deep relationships with marketers and agencies to build the marketing matchmaker service, Setup. Before becoming an entrepreneur, Joe spent six years leading business development and marketing for Engauge. As Senior Vice President of Business Development and Marketing there, he helped the agency build new relationships with high-profile clients like Cisco Systems, Newell Brands, AMC Theatres, Hanesbrands, and Hershey’s. Joe serves on the board of directors of the American Marketing Association (AMA Atlanta), the Atlanta Interactive Marketing
Association (AIMA), and the Terry College of Business at the University of Georgia. He also volunteers weekly at Everybody Wins! Atlanta, and participated in the Entrepreneurs’ Organization Accelerator program.
Joe joins Guy to share how finding the right mix of compatibility and chemistry is crucial for creating long-lasting partnerships between agencies and brands.
Links:
@SetupSays social handles:
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Transcript
Hi, I'm Guy Powell and welcome to the 10th episode
Guy Powell:of the Backstory on Marketing. If you haven't already done so
Guy Powell:please visit proelevant.com and sign up for all of these
Guy Powell:episodes and podcasts. I am the author of the upcoming book The
Guy Powell:post COVID marketing machine, prepare your team to win. You
Guy Powell:can find more information on my book at marketing machine dot
Guy Powell:pro relevant to.com. Today we'll be speaking with Joe Kaufman.
Guy Powell:Joe is responsible for introducing three married
Guy Powell:couples and countless business relationships in early 2014. He
Guy Powell:parlayed his passion for connecting people to founding
Guy Powell:setup at and you can find setup@setup.us setup is a
Guy Powell:marketing matchmaker. But before becoming an entrepreneur, Joe
Guy Powell:spent six years leading business development and marketing for
Guy Powell:engage, which was acquired by the publicist group, and then
Guy Powell:merged also with moxie. As Senior Vice President of
Guy Powell:Business Development and Marketing. He helped the agency
Guy Powell:build new relationships with high profile clients, such as
Guy Powell:Cisco Newell brands, AMC theaters, HANES Brands, and a
Guy Powell:whole list of others. When Joe isn't working, he loves to
Guy Powell:discover new music. And he hosts a weekly radio show at gumbo
Guy Powell:show.com. And he spends a lot of time with his wife, Michelle,
Guy Powell:and their twins Joss and Radley. Most weekends he's supporting
Guy Powell:his kids activities, playing his grandmother's trumpet, running
Guy Powell:and immersing himself in music. Joe, welcome, and great to have
Guy Powell:you today.
Joe Koufman:Thanks so much, Guy. It's such a pleasure to be
Joe Koufman:here with you.
Guy Powell:Yeah, thank you. So let's get started. So tell us
Guy Powell:about yourself and what your backstory is on marketing. Yeah,
Guy Powell:so
Joe Koufman:I grew up in North Carolina, even though I had
Joe Koufman:Boston roots. And I graduated from Wake Forest University, and
Joe Koufman:spent four years in retail. And retail moved me from New
Joe Koufman:Orleans, Louisiana, to Jackson Hole Wyoming, to Atlanta,
Joe Koufman:Georgia, where I finally ran the Eddie Bauer at Lenox Square
Joe Koufman:Mall, which was the biggest of their stores in the southeast.
Joe Koufman:And at 26 years old. Having 50 employees and running that
Joe Koufman:store, I did one holiday season and decided I was done with
Joe Koufman:retail forever. And so I joined a.com called Knowledge storm and
Joe Koufman:spent eight years there. And we went from all thinking we were
Joe Koufman:going to be millionaires to layoffs and things over time
Joe Koufman:during the.com bust, to eventually selling to a recently
Joe Koufman:company that went public called Tech target bought knowledge
Joe Koufman:storm for $58 million, used about half of their IPO money.
Joe Koufman:And then I went to join a small digital agency called spawn
Joe Koufman:logic was probably 60 or so people that soon got acquired by
Joe Koufman:engage, which ended up about 250 people. And then we sold as you
Joe Koufman:said, approval says six years after after I joined. And our
Joe Koufman:revenue when we sold was roughly 40 to $43 million. And of that
Joe Koufman:$43 million of annual revenue, I was responsible for probably 60%
Joe Koufman:of the clients that made up that revenue, maybe a little bit
Joe Koufman:more, maybe 65%. But and when when we were acquired by pulses
Joe Koufman:group and merged with moxie, as you mentioned, it became clear
Joe Koufman:to me that I you know, while it was a very, very good agency and
Joe Koufman:great holding company, it wasn't going to be the same kind of
Joe Koufman:agency that I had joined six years earlier. And for me, I
Joe Koufman:really loved matchmaking as you as you mentioned in my bio,
Joe Koufman:it's, you know, a hobby, but then I definitely love
Joe Koufman:connecting people together at at my company set up our purpose is
Joe Koufman:to unlock the power of human connections. That's our real
Joe Koufman:purpose. And, you know, it's that is my personal life. That
Joe Koufman:is my professional life. And I think the people that I've hired
Joe Koufman:and my team, all would agree that they love also unlocking
Joe Koufman:the power of human connections. So that's the path that brings
Joe Koufman:us you know, it's we just had our eighth anniversary in
Joe Koufman:February of 2022 and It's been quite a journey.
Guy Powell:Yeah, wow, eight years is not an easy thing. And
Guy Powell:then to and I know you guys are very successful, and you're
Guy Powell:definitely in a very interesting space. And I like that concept.
Guy Powell:Well, I found, I helped set up three marriages. And then I also
Guy Powell:do that for businesses. But I, when I saw that I really smiled.
Guy Powell:That was pretty good.
Joe Koufman:Well, and they're not all still married guy, but I
Joe Koufman:never claimed to be a marriage counselor.
Guy Powell:Yeah, very good. I like that. So, so what kind of
Guy Powell:agencies and brands do typically worked for it. So build those
Guy Powell:relationships? Yeah.
Joe Koufman:So the way we normally work is, most of the
Joe Koufman:brands that we work with are on the medium to large size. So
Joe Koufman:we've worked with a lot of fortune 500 brands, as well as
Joe Koufman:some mid market kind of companies too. And the way our
Joe Koufman:process normally works is that we work with the client to help
Joe Koufman:them write a brief, to outline and clarify exactly what they're
Joe Koufman:trying to accomplish from a marketing standpoint, then we
Joe Koufman:look across a network, a group of agencies to determine if any
Joe Koufman:of those agencies are a really good fit to solve that problem.
Joe Koufman:And, and we put those agencies through a very rigorous vetting
Joe Koufman:process upfront before we even will work with them before we
Joe Koufman:even write the brief for the client or where there's a need.
Joe Koufman:But if any of those agencies are a good fit on paper, to solve
Joe Koufman:the problem, they're capable, they have the client experience
Joe Koufman:or the discipline expertise, then we typically will introduce
Joe Koufman:that client to three or four different agencies that are all
Joe Koufman:capable. And the reason we do that, as any good matchmaker
Joe Koufman:will tell you, there's compatibility on paper, and then
Joe Koufman:there's chemistry. And we can predict combative compatibility,
Joe Koufman:or compatibility with compatibility on paper all day
Joe Koufman:long. We can't always predict the chemistry. So by introducing
Joe Koufman:the client to three or four different agencies, we're
Joe Koufman:allowing the client to own that communication and determine if
Joe Koufman:there's chemistry and determine if they want a second date with
Joe Koufman:any of agencies to use the dating analogy again. On the
Joe Koufman:other hand, when we write the brief, if it's clear that the
Joe Koufman:need of the client is different than just introducing them to
Joe Koufman:three or four agencies, and getting out of the way, then we
Joe Koufman:can work with the client to actually perform a custom agency
Joe Koufman:search where we run the entire process from writing the profile
Joe Koufman:of the ideal agency by interviewing all the key
Joe Koufman:stakeholders, building a really long list of potential agencies,
Joe Koufman:narrowing the pool down to a much more manageable group,
Joe Koufman:sending out some requests for information, questions that are
Joe Koufman:relatively easy for the agency to answer, you know, in a half
Joe Koufman:hour or something, narrowing the pool down based on those
Joe Koufman:answers, issuing an RFP to a handful of agencies, and then
Joe Koufman:picking the top three or four to pitch the client and then
Joe Koufman:helping the client ultimately make a decision. So we were able
Joe Koufman:to help the client, find the right agency, whether it's from
Joe Koufman:the pool of agencies that are already working with us, or a
Joe Koufman:much larger pool that don't work with us.
Guy Powell:Yeah, yeah, very interesting. And I think you're
Guy Powell:right, though, I think, you know, one of the challenges, I
Guy Powell:think, with selecting an agency is there. There's the
Guy Powell:differences between them. Certainly, there's personality,
Guy Powell:and there's certainly some people have a creative bent in
Guy Powell:one direction versus versus another. But if that chemistry
Guy Powell:doesn't match, then it's, it's, well, it's just like a marriage.
Guy Powell:If that chemistry doesn't match, boy, it's not going to not going
Guy Powell:to do very well over the long term. And it's an expensive,
Joe Koufman:right, right, right. You need you need, you
Joe Koufman:need both both capability and chemistry. And I used to think
Joe Koufman:it was 5050 50% capability and 50% chemistry. Now, I believe
Joe Koufman:it's actually probably 35% capability and 65% chemistry,
Joe Koufman:chemistry is probably even more important than capability.
Guy Powell:Yeah. And I think even in our relationships with
Guy Powell:our clients, you know, if you don't have that rapport and that
Guy Powell:chemistry, there's always as good as we all try to be. And,
Guy Powell:you know, I think just about every agency is excellent at
Guy Powell:what they do, but there's always things that go wrong. There's
Guy Powell:something that gets in the way A summer, whatever it happens, and
Guy Powell:you need that chemistry in that report to be able to get past
Guy Powell:that. So that you're, you know, so that you really are able to
Guy Powell:deliver really, really good work for the agencies and that I
Guy Powell:think you're right, I think it is definitely 65%. So almost
Guy Powell:like, you know, there's in any conversation 80% of the message
Guy Powell:is in the in the body language, and only 20% is in the wording.
Guy Powell:So maybe it's something similar to that.
Unknown:Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure.
Guy Powell:So has that changed at all? Since COVID? Has the
Guy Powell:internet as the turnover gotten better? Or worse? Or has have
Guy Powell:the relationships changed significantly?
Joe Koufman:So the short answer is, turnover is increased on the
Joe Koufman:brand side with marketers and with the agencies in terms of
Joe Koufman:staff and employees, because of, I'm not calling it the great
Joe Koufman:resignation, I'm calling it the talent wars, you know, it's
Joe Koufman:essentially, and but we're finding, we had our busiest
Joe Koufman:quarter ever, in terms of brands looking for agency support,
Joe Koufman:because eight brands are leaner than they ever were some of
Joe Koufman:them, you know, laid off people early in COVID. And then found
Joe Koufman:themselves pretty short handed in terms of being able to
Joe Koufman:execute on their marketing initiatives. And right now, you
Joe Koufman:know, because there are more marketing needs than there are
Joe Koufman:staff trying to, if you were as a client, trying to add
Joe Koufman:headcount for creative art director, a copywriter, a email
Joe Koufman:marketing expert, a social media expert, an analytics person, a
Joe Koufman:project manager, and account manager, if you wanted to add
Joe Koufman:all of those headcount, it's really tough to even if you
Joe Koufman:could find the people, which it's hard to do, do you really
Joe Koufman:have the room in your organization to bring on six,
Joe Koufman:seven new people who, some of whom are specialists in their
Joe Koufman:craft, and not generalists. So we're seeing that brands clients
Joe Koufman:are hiring, more and more agencies support because with
Joe Koufman:one single, you know, agreement with an agency, they can get all
Joe Koufman:of those discipline experts to work on their account. Rather
Joe Koufman:than trying to hire them all separately. And also, as
Joe Koufman:projects and need scale up and scale down, you can scale up and
Joe Koufman:scale down that agency relationship, a lot easier than,
Joe Koufman:you know, if, if worse, come to worse, and you really, really
Joe Koufman:needed to cut expenses, it's a lot easier to cut the agency
Joe Koufman:than it is to lay off seven people. So we're seeing a lot of
Joe Koufman:velocity right now, in terms of we're busier than we've ever
Joe Koufman:been in the eight year history, in terms of the total number of
Joe Koufman:introductions we're making between brands and agencies.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I think your your, your point is
Guy Powell:definitely right, the agencies are they have the ability to
Guy Powell:scale up and scale down a lot more easily. You know, in
Guy Powell:however they do it, but because they have the management team in
Guy Powell:place, and then the agency, you know, account management in
Guy Powell:place, and then they've got, you know, people that can, you know,
Guy Powell:execute on various things that it is a lot easier. And I think
Guy Powell:you're right to is it is hard for companies to hire folks find
Guy Powell:the folks poach the folks nowadays. And, and, and then and
Guy Powell:then they don't have really a guarantee, so to speak, that the
Guy Powell:person that they actually hired is actually going to be able to
Guy Powell:deliver on what they wanted to hire. And so that is that is
Guy Powell:tough, that is really tough for them. That's for sure. So what
Guy Powell:do you think the biggest challenges are now and in, in
Guy Powell:the post COVID world for finding an agency? Is there? Is there a
Guy Powell:lot of demand now, like you said, or how does that how does
Guy Powell:that work?
Joe Koufman:Yeah, I mean, we're, the challenge with
Joe Koufman:finding an agency, this is actually not even post COVID,
Joe Koufman:pre COVID. This has always been the challenge is, first of all,
Joe Koufman:marketers are somewhat limited by their network, right? I only
Joe Koufman:know who I know, and agencies change pretty rapidly in terms
Joe Koufman:of an agency that was fantastic two years ago, may not be any
Joe Koufman:more an agency that was not well known two years ago might be
Joe Koufman:great now. So we're limited by asking some colleagues or
Joe Koufman:friends with agencies they've worked with and that kind of
Joe Koufman:thing. Secondly, time finding, you know, go ahead and Google
Joe Koufman:user experience agency and see how many 1000s and 1000s of
Joe Koufman:results come up or, you know, whatever, public relations firm
Joe Koufman:or advertising agency or web design, whatever the thing is
Joe Koufman:your need. It's really inefficient to just search and,
Joe Koufman:you know, so takes a lot One time to find the right agency
Joe Koufman:and narrow in on the one that's the best fit for you. And then
Joe Koufman:the other thing is vetting, vetting the agencies and putting
Joe Koufman:them through a process. It's difficult. It's time consuming.
Joe Koufman:It's a challenge to Okay. Again, I've got this list of 1000
Joe Koufman:agencies that came up on a Google search. How do I
Joe Koufman:differentiate them? They all say they're good at everything.
Joe Koufman:Right? And they're not right. So one of those are all problems or
Joe Koufman:challenges that we solve for the client at setup, because we've
Joe Koufman:already put the agencies through a really, very rigorous vetting
Joe Koufman:process, it takes about a month for us to complete. It includes
Joe Koufman:us talking to serving current clients of the agency and past
Joe Koufman:clients of the agency that no longer work with them, because
Joe Koufman:we've found that they're the most candid about what the real
Joe Koufman:strengths are they agency and their weaknesses. We also survey
Joe Koufman:the key staff within the agency to understand one how self aware
Joe Koufman:they are, you know, do they do their answers jive with what
Joe Koufman:current and past clients say, but also to understand, you
Joe Koufman:know, where they're going, what they feel their real strengths
Joe Koufman:are, and that kind of thing. And that whole vetting process helps
Joe Koufman:us really get to know the agency as well. It also holds a mirror
Joe Koufman:up to the agency and allows them to learn more about themselves
Joe Koufman:and their strengths and weaknesses. But also, it
Joe Koufman:sometimes even uncovers opportunities, because we'll
Joe Koufman:sometimes survey a past client that says, Man, I really we
Joe Koufman:asked them a question like, What do you wish this agency could
Joe Koufman:have? Could have done for you? And sometimes the answer is
Joe Koufman:something that they've added, since they stopped working with
Joe Koufman:agency or something. So that whole process, we call it our
Joe Koufman:agency assessment process. It helps us upfront, cut down on
Joe Koufman:some of that information overload of Google search of
Joe Koufman:being able to help the client only work with agencies that
Joe Koufman:have been really well vetted only work with agencies that
Joe Koufman:have demonstrated success with, you know, similar clients in the
Joe Koufman:industry and similar types of projects and things like that.
Joe Koufman:And so it's, it's a time thing, it's an efficiency thing, and
Joe Koufman:it's not limiting the client to just a couple of agencies that
Joe Koufman:they've heard of.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely see that. And so
Guy Powell:do you think now, the agencies or the searches are trying to
Guy Powell:consolidate, you know, down to, let's say, you know, just a
Guy Powell:handful of agencies versus having, you know, a whole bunch
Guy Powell:and being very specialized with each one is, how do you how do
Guy Powell:you see that as the trend in the industry, or is it, it's still
Guy Powell:just totally dynamic going back and forth, depending on the
Guy Powell:company.
Joe Koufman:It's a pendulum that definitely swings back and
Joe Koufman:forth, and we see it every year or two, there's a, we'll see.
Joe Koufman:Some clients that really want to work with One Agency of record a
Joe Koufman:general agency that we found that they are often very, very,
Joe Koufman:they're often good at many things, they have a larger host
Joe Koufman:of disciplines of marketing that they cover, but they aren't
Joe Koufman:necessarily specialists. So they're not super deep in a
Joe Koufman:specific discipline. We have other clients that like to
Joe Koufman:manage a group of specialists. And the challenge there is that
Joe Koufman:the specialists aren't always seeing the real big picture of
Joe Koufman:what the company is trying to accomplish. And, and it's a lot
Joe Koufman:more management for the client to manage multiple agencies
Joe Koufman:instead of having one quote neck to choke, you know, one agency.
Joe Koufman:I personally, would, if I were the client, I would prefer to
Joe Koufman:manage multiple specialists, rather than one big agency of
Joe Koufman:record because I feel that I would, I'm willing to spend more
Joe Koufman:time and energy managing multiple agencies but getting
Joe Koufman:the DIS the best of the best in terms of discipline expertise.
Joe Koufman:But we see that pendulum swing back and forth with a pendulum
Joe Koufman:we see guy is companies that want to build in house agencies
Joe Koufman:and in house, you know, capabilities versus partnering
Joe Koufman:with age external agencies to do work. And we see that go back
Joe Koufman:and forth. Many big brands try to build their in house agency
Joe Koufman:as a shared service that maybe multiple brands within the
Joe Koufman:agency come to the shared service for marketing. The
Joe Koufman:challenge with that is that often you know the client As a
Joe Koufman:people that want to go work for an agency, are different than
Joe Koufman:the kinds because they want to work on multiple clients and
Joe Koufman:multiple different industries are somewhat different than the
Joe Koufman:kinds of people that want to work on one for one company and
Joe Koufman:one brand. So and also one of the one other piece with the in
Joe Koufman:house agencies versus external is that often those shared
Joe Koufman:services teams are strapped with capacity issues. And so it
Joe Koufman:leaves the brands that are the clients, the internal clients,
Joe Koufman:sometimes frustrated, trying to get good quality work out of
Joe Koufman:that internal agency, and then they say, I'm just gonna go hire
Joe Koufman:my own agency, outside of the shared services.
Guy Powell:Well, and especially to if if you have a, you know,
Guy Powell:if you're a family of brands, and they all have certain things
Guy Powell:that are specific to a specific holiday, and, and all of a
Guy Powell:sudden, they need a whole bunch of stuff for the Memorial Day
Guy Powell:sale or the and then, you know, you got this peak in demand
Guy Powell:that, that the internal agency may not be able to handle. Yeah,
Guy Powell:and I think you're right to that, there's no question even
Guy Powell:for us, when we, one of the, we do like quarterly updates for a
Guy Powell:lot of our analytics work. And, you know, so that's four times a
Guy Powell:year that for our clients, we're super busy, if they were going
Guy Powell:to hire and do that internally, that person that would be doing
Guy Powell:our work, so to speak, would have nothing to do for three or
Guy Powell:four, you know, three more, maybe even six weeks out of the
Guy Powell:quarter. And, you know, and these people in our industry
Guy Powell:analytics, and in your, you know, in agencies, these
Guy Powell:creative people, they don't want to sit around doing nothing for
Guy Powell:six weeks, you know, they'd rather be doing, you know,
Guy Powell:something that's very interesting and very, you know,
Guy Powell:sparks their curiosity and really gets their juices going.
Guy Powell:And I think that's one of the big challenges on both sides,
Guy Powell:you know, even for the agencies, to be able to keep those people
Guy Powell:and keep them really busy and give them then the new the new
Guy Powell:deal. Every you know, every, every once in a while, hey, you
Guy Powell:got to work on this one, and then this one and this one, then
Guy Powell:jump back and jump back. You know, that's a that that
Guy Powell:requires a special type of person, and they don't want to,
Guy Powell:you know, be bored, so to speak, necessarily with working on an
Guy Powell:internal agency and trying to run an internal agency. Yeah.
Guy Powell:Yeah, so So is there any big difference between larger brands
Guy Powell:doing a search for a larger brand versus a smaller brand, or
Guy Powell:potentially even a startup? You know, if you get a start up and
Guy Powell:an IPO, and you're about to try and get on the Superbowl, or
Guy Powell:whatever, you know, it's the search is different there than
Guy Powell:otherwise?
Joe Koufman:Well, if you're trying to get into Super Bowl,
Joe Koufman:the search is very different, because that's a full on RFP
Joe Koufman:process, usually, because those are millions and millions of
Joe Koufman:dollars. But to answer your question, smaller agencies
Joe Koufman:usually hire sorry, smaller clients, smaller brands usually
Joe Koufman:hire smaller agencies that are a little more generalists. Because
Joe Koufman:they can't afford to hire for different agencies, they only
Joe Koufman:have the budget to hire one. And that one better be able to do at
Joe Koufman:least many of the things that the client really needs. The
Joe Koufman:larger the client, the more likely they are to work with
Joe Koufman:specialist agencies, either a big AOR and some specialists or
Joe Koufman:all specialists, because they, you know, they hire an agency
Joe Koufman:specifically to do CRM and marketing automation, they hire
Joe Koufman:an agency specifically to do content creation, they hire an
Joe Koufman:agency specifically to do public relations, or web design or app
Joe Koufman:development, or whatever the thing is that they need help
Joe Koufman:with, they know that they're a large agency of record, probably
Joe Koufman:doesn't have all of the chops to do all of those individual
Joe Koufman:things. Well, so the bigger the brand, the more likely they are
Joe Koufman:to hire a group of specialists and you know, the smaller brands
Joe Koufman:have to hire a generalist that smaller on the smaller side in
Joe Koufman:terms of staff too, because they can't afford the same scale that
Joe Koufman:a bigger Yes,
Guy Powell:he could divide. Yeah. And they need on boats.
Guy Powell:And it's on both sides as well. Because, you know, the fees are
Guy Powell:one thing, but also you need personnel to manage all that.
Guy Powell:And, you know, then the more you have going on on the outside,
Guy Powell:you gotta have more people on the inside to manage what's
Guy Powell:going on on the outside. So, yeah, so the market and
Guy Powell:marketing has certainly changed over the last Well, certainly
Guy Powell:since COVID. And pre COVID versus post COVID. And, and, and
Guy Powell:we definitely saw it, you know, I was my book has a basically
Guy Powell:has that is that one of its premises is that there is a big
Guy Powell:big difference. Pre COVID versus post COVID in technology. What
Guy Powell:do you see then now, post COVID are as the biggest Challenges
Guy Powell:facing facing agencies and even on the other side, the brands
Guy Powell:that that they're working with.
Joe Koufman:It's funny, you asked that question now, because
Joe Koufman:we're in the midst of wrapping up our fourth annual marketing
Joe Koufman:relationship survey. And in fact, it's going to close soon,
Joe Koufman:I'm not sure, by the time this airs, we may already have closed
Joe Koufman:it. But essentially, what this is the fourth year that we've
Joe Koufman:looked at those, that marketing landscape and how it's changed,
Joe Koufman:and also those relationships between brands and agencies,
Joe Koufman:that sort of part of it. Interestingly, in last year
Joe Koufman:survey, which we were fortunate enough to have, at age,
Joe Koufman:published it on their homepage and the print and send it out
Joe Koufman:via all their newsletters and things. So they got widely
Joe Koufman:promoted, and by Ad Age. But what their headline was that
Joe Koufman:within the next six months, one in three brands will change
Joe Koufman:agencies. And I kind of chuckled when I saw the headline, because
Joe Koufman:I think at any given moment, one in three brands is thinking
Joe Koufman:about changing agencies that was validated by our that's
Joe Koufman:validated almost every year and survey, which is, you know, two
Joe Koufman:thirds of the clients are perfectly happy with their
Joe Koufman:agency and 1/3 are not going to get to switch what a client's
Joe Koufman:care about and what brands care about clients care about? Well,
Joe Koufman:what they don't care about is the proximity of their agency,
Joe Koufman:whether the agency is down the street from them or not, it's
Joe Koufman:especially during post COVID, we all learned that we could work
Joe Koufman:remotely successfully, and that we don't need to be in the room
Joe Koufman:with the with our customers, with our clients with our
Joe Koufman:agencies. They don't care about whether the agencies win a lot
Joe Koufman:of awards. They don't care so much about the seniority of the
Joe Koufman:team or whether or not they have specialized capabilities. They
Joe Koufman:do care about which this is heartening. Because these are
Joe Koufman:things that agency people can control. They care about
Joe Koufman:creativity. They care about professionalism. They care about
Joe Koufman:chemistry. They care about cost. And they're looking for
Joe Koufman:transparency in the relationship, they're looking
Joe Koufman:for vulnerability, they're looking for some employee
Joe Koufman:retention, even though the agency business is typically as
Joe Koufman:pretty transient in terms of people coming and going. There
Joe Koufman:is value in some longevity and institutional knowledge, that
Joe Koufman:kind of thing. And they just want clear expectations. You
Joe Koufman:know, part of that this survey is to understand what clients
Joe Koufman:wish agencies knew what agencies wish clients knew. And it's kind
Joe Koufman:of funny, because they're, like, look, the clients wish the
Joe Koufman:agencies would act as more strategic partners, and agencies
Joe Koufman:wished the clients would let them do more strategic work. So
Joe Koufman:what's the problem here? There's a disconnect. And the answer is,
Joe Koufman:you know, the clients say things like, I don't think the agency
Joe Koufman:truly understands bureaucratic red tape within my organization,
Joe Koufman:or your other priorities that aren't just this marketing,
Joe Koufman:stuff that I'm working on with you. And agencies want to be led
Joe Koufman:into the inner circle, and part of the planning meetings and all
Joe Koufman:of those things. So it's just there's a, you know, that
Joe Koufman:transparency, that vulnerability, that clear
Joe Koufman:expectations, that would go a long way in, in really improving
Joe Koufman:relationships between brands and agencies.
Guy Powell:Yeah, that is definitely funny. And I think I
Guy Powell:think you're right on the outside, you know, even with our
Guy Powell:relationships, on the outside, we are always providing kind of
Guy Powell:the strategic look at whatever it is that we produce. And, and
Guy Powell:yet, in terms of actually getting across, what we think,
Guy Powell:you know, is going to be potentially important, or at
Guy Powell:least getting that feedback so that we can build it into what
Guy Powell:we deliver is sometimes is sometimes lacking, and, you
Guy Powell:know, and you're basically, you know, instead of being, you
Guy Powell:know, the, at least the collar on the dog, you're kind of the
Guy Powell:tail and you find you find out when that when that dog starts
Guy Powell:to wag its tail, you don't find out, you know, right next to it,
Guy Powell:you know, you know, when they first heard it, so, yeah, yeah,
Guy Powell:I think I think that's, that's a really good, that's a really
Guy Powell:good, good point. So otherwise, you know, there's things like
Guy Powell:and we were just at an event together on NF Ts. I'm just
Guy Powell:curious. How you see that now. Influencing agencies, are there
Guy Powell:going to be now NF T specialists and or are they going to be
Guy Powell:generalized into a digital or is it going to be both or all of
Guy Powell:the above?
Joe Koufman:Yeah. Well, that's one reason In that I think a lot
Joe Koufman:of clients hire agencies is because they rely on their
Joe Koufman:agencies to keep their fingers on the pulse of emerging trends.
Joe Koufman:You know, if you're working for a giant hotel company or for a
Joe Koufman:company that sells soda, or you're working for a company
Joe Koufman:that sells hammers and paint and home renovation supplies, you're
Joe Koufman:focused on selling more paint and hammers and are selling more
Joe Koufman:soda or selling more booking more hotel rooms. You're not
Joe Koufman:focused on every emerging trend that as it comes along, I mean,
Joe Koufman:even with social media, there was Friendster, and then there
Joe Koufman:was,
Guy Powell:I'm gonna MySpace,
Joe Koufman:MySpace, thank you Myspace, Facebook, and then
Joe Koufman:Facebook, and then Instagram, and then Snapchat and Tiktok.
Joe Koufman:And whatever's next right, and metaverse. And I'm not saying
Joe Koufman:that some of the some of these emerging technologies will
Joe Koufman:stick, you know, Instagram and Snapchat are here to stay right.
Joe Koufman:Tick tock is here to stay, I think. But and there were some
Joe Koufman:time there were days when we weren't sure that tick tock was
Joe Koufman:right, make it right. For a number of reasons. But my point
Joe Koufman:is that all of these trends NFT, and cryptocurrency and
Joe Koufman:blockchain, I think elements of them are here to stay agencies
Joe Koufman:are part of their job is to keep their finger on the pulse and be
Joe Koufman:helpful and advise their clients as to how to get into into them
Joe Koufman:in a safe way. And I would say that clients and agencies need
Joe Koufman:to reserve a portion of their budget for testing, you might
Joe Koufman:not spend 95% of your money on your budget on on NF T's. But
Joe Koufman:man, you shouldn't be spending 5% of it. So that your, if it
Joe Koufman:really does become a massive part of our world, or our new
Joe Koufman:world, then at the very least you are in it. So I think but I
Joe Koufman:think that agencies are more likely to stay abreast of those
Joe Koufman:trends, because they live and breathe it all day, every day,
Joe Koufman:versus having to take time away to sell some more hammers and
Joe Koufman:lumber, or take time away to try to get right help hotel rooms
Joe Koufman:booked.
Guy Powell:Well, and I think, you know, even going back to
Guy Powell:when the internet started, you know how many domain names were,
Guy Powell:you know, not taken, when I think of delta.com paying, I
Guy Powell:don't know, nobody knows how much they had to pay. But if
Guy Powell:they had used, you know, even one or 2% of their budget to
Guy Powell:understand what was going on, they would have realized that
Guy Powell:they need to protect their domain, you know, delta.com, or
Guy Powell:whatever, just so that they could be ready in case it really
Guy Powell:took off. And then secondly, though, I think those companies
Guy Powell:that get in early, like get into Snapchat early on or get into
Guy Powell:Instagram early on, they can get a very short term, very high
Guy Powell:return, because it's kind of it's, it's, you know, it's the
Guy Powell:wild wild west. So you can try a whole bunch of stuff, get known
Guy Powell:for it, and then all of a sudden, you, you get all of that
Guy Powell:brand, you know, brand value out of it. And and those companies
Guy Powell:that that go in late, they kind of only get the mature growth or
Guy Powell:mature value as opposed to that early on big value.
Joe Koufman:I'll give you a perfect example since your book
Joe Koufman:is about marketing in the post COVID world. Ecommerce is a huge
Joe Koufman:example of this. The brands and companies particularly retail
Joe Koufman:brands, or Restaurant Brands that were already involved in E
Joe Koufman:commerce had already set up their ecommerce infrastructure.
Joe Koufman:And already were selling goods online, whether that good is
Joe Koufman:delivered by you know, FedEx or UPS or USPS, or whether that
Joe Koufman:good is I'm going to drive by the restaurant and pick up a
Joe Koufman:takeout order or Beauprez, buy online, pick up in store,
Joe Koufman:whatever, whatever the delivery mechanism is. Those that had
Joe Koufman:already gotten into E commerce pre COVID emerged really strong
Joe Koufman:because they already could deliver to the new norm that was
Joe Koufman:set because of the pandemic that I might not want to step foot in
Joe Koufman:the store or in the restaurant, but I'm still willing to eat the
Joe Koufman:food or I'm still willing to buy the item. And those that didn't
Joe Koufman:have that infrastructure in place, really struggled to, for
Joe Koufman:example, hire agencies that can support ecommerce, but who were
Joe Koufman:swamped, you know, because they're so so So to your point,
Joe Koufman:the early adopters of as new technologies emerge, the early
Joe Koufman:adopters, I think, are in a better position to thrive long
Joe Koufman:term than those that are waiting to see if it's gonna pan out.
Guy Powell:Right, right. And a good example of that is
Guy Powell:Chick-fil-A, they had online ordering figured out well before
Guy Powell:the COVID, lockdown started, and they were then able to once they
Guy Powell:were able to open up again, they were able to take orders
Guy Powell:immediately, whereas a lot of the other, you know, drive thru
Guy Powell:restaurants were not. And so you could order online, and then
Guy Powell:pick up like you said, pickup in the drive thru and Chick-fil A
Guy Powell:was just, they exploded during COVID. Because they were ready
Guy Powell:because they had the technology ready. So that when people were
Guy Powell:coming back and didn't want to come into the restaurant, but
Guy Powell:we're ready to do the drive thru the bonus, I like that, I'm
Guy Powell:going to use that one. But you know, being able to pick up
Guy Powell:their sales just just exploded, and they, you can just see how
Guy Powell:well they've done compared to the other ones.
Joe Koufman:I have a related example. Speaking of Chick fil
Joe Koufman:A, I hired a really smart and talented young man to set up,
Joe Koufman:who found he got an opportunity to take his dream job, which is
Joe Koufman:that he was hired by Chick fil A before the pandemic began to
Joe Koufman:help them roll out delivery. So initially, they worked with
Joe Koufman:DoorDash and Uber Eats and the other delivery services to
Joe Koufman:deliver food. And they had to figure out which food travels
Joe Koufman:well for delivery, which who doesn't then figure out how to
Joe Koufman:efficiently get it to the people that were ordering it at their
Joe Koufman:homes. But again, they were looking at delivery as a as a
Joe Koufman:distribution model before the pandemic hit. And when pandemic
Joe Koufman:hit, you can bet that delivery service became huge. And this
Joe Koufman:young man is thriving within the company. Because, you know, all
Joe Koufman:of a sudden, everybody started looking at him and saying, Wow,
Joe Koufman:you're the guy that's going to help us get this food to the
Joe Koufman:customers who don't want to go sit in our restaurant right now.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and I
Guy Powell:think, you know, to, to, you know, the point about being able
Guy Powell:to have a couple of percent of your budget ready for
Guy Powell:experiments, you know, whether it's NFT's nowadays, or whatever
Guy Powell:the next big thing is or the metaverse or whatever, it's,
Guy Powell:it's definitely being ready. And, you know, and if it, you
Guy Powell:know, I think there's still a lot of challenges with NF T's
Guy Powell:and, but nevertheless, to be ready to either do some short
Guy Powell:term things and experiment and find out that they work or find
Guy Powell:out that they don't, and then be ready when that when that
Guy Powell:explosion starts to take off that you can ride that wave
Guy Powell:going all the way up. And and I think brands can can really do a
Guy Powell:good job with that. And then you know, getting back to agencies
Guy Powell:and brand relationships, you know, the if the brand, if the
Guy Powell:agencies aren't bringing those ideas, or if the brands aren't
Guy Powell:asking for it, then I don't think they're, you know, they're
Guy Powell:probably doing themselves a disservice by not, you know,
Guy Powell:thinking about outside the box as to what what might be
Guy Powell:possible coming up over the next, you know, year, maybe it's
Guy Powell:even six months, or maybe it's a little further out. Yeah,
Guy Powell:absolutely. Yeah. So, anyway, we're about out of time, I'd
Guy Powell:love to keep going. But anything, anything you'd like to
Guy Powell:close with, that we didn't get to talk about? Yeah,
Joe Koufman:there's one other thing, one other service that we
Joe Koufman:provide that might be interesting to some of your
Joe Koufman:listeners. And that's what we call marketing ecosystem
Joe Koufman:planning. And what that means is that, in some cases, the client
Joe Koufman:is not ready to hire an agency yet. What they really need to
Joe Koufman:understand is what's the right balance or mix between internal
Joe Koufman:resources, you know, hiring headcount, and external
Joe Koufman:partners, agencies or otherwise. And so, one of the things we
Joe Koufman:launched because clients were demanding this, we just finished
Joe Koufman:a project for a fortune 500 company, that they weren't ready
Joe Koufman:to hire an agency yet, they really truly needed to
Joe Koufman:understand what their Nirvana should look like from a
Joe Koufman:marketing ecosystem standpoint. So we help them paint the
Joe Koufman:picture of what the ecosystem should look like. And then we
Joe Koufman:help them understand where they are today and get a roadmap to
Joe Koufman:how they get from where they are today to where they should be.
Joe Koufman:And by the way, once we identified some of those
Joe Koufman:external partner buckets that were empty or leaky, we can also
Joe Koufman:help them find agencies but this is before you get there. There's
Joe Koufman:an ecosystem that needs has to be planned for before we can
Joe Koufman:start filling those buckets. So it's, we call it a marketing
Joe Koufman:ecosystem planning. And it's another service that we offer to
Joe Koufman:clients that are truly not quite ready to hire agencies or
Joe Koufman:anything like that.
Guy Powell:Yeah, understood. And and I think you're right and
Guy Powell:potentially even for, you know, brands that are in kind of a,
Guy Powell:rebuild the refresh mode where they, you know, had maybe a down
Guy Powell:quarter, maybe something went wrong, maybe they are just
Guy Powell:recovering from supply chain issues, or where they were just
Guy Powell:acquired and you know, they've got challenges and then, you
Guy Powell:know, the this, then they really, not only that, do they
Guy Powell:need the strategy on how they're going to recover and get out of
Guy Powell:the hole that they're in. But then as they're trying to get
Guy Powell:out of that whole is, what is the right ecosystem, I can see
Guy Powell:that being very valuable for brands exactly like that. And
Guy Powell:making sure they put those partners in place that can
Guy Powell:really help them propel, because otherwise the marketing team is
Guy Powell:going to lose, and then marketing for most of these
Guy Powell:brands. If marketing doesn't work, they're gonna lose.
Joe Koufman:Yeah, and this case, the client that hired us
Joe Koufman:was brand new VP of Marketing with a lot of direct reports,
Joe Koufman:and they had a lot of direct reports. And they were doing
Joe Koufman:lots and lots and lots of marketing projects, but they
Joe Koufman:weren't really looking carefully at should they be doing all
Joe Koufman:these marketing projects. And are they the best, you know,
Joe Koufman:there's the output, the best quality and all of these things.
Joe Koufman:And the other thing is that a lot of the marketing efforts
Joe Koufman:were because several companies came together to become a larger
Joe Koufman:company, that's a fortune 500. In some cases, her predecessors
Joe Koufman:were running marketing, like they were still a smaller
Joe Koufman:company and working with, you know, did they have the right
Joe Koufman:team in place for them to scale to the next level, do they have
Joe Koufman:the right set of partners to scale to the next level, so
Joe Koufman:we're, we were that that particular project was about
Joe Koufman:helping them understand that. And now, now that we've
Joe Koufman:delivered our output from that, they definitely are going to
Joe Koufman:need help figuring out how to, they're gonna have to hire some
Joe Koufman:people, they're gonna have to hire some agencies, potentially,
Joe Koufman:or at least review their agencies and make sure they're
Joe Koufman:getting what they need out of them. So anyway, I love that
Joe Koufman:service, because it's very consultative, and it's a way
Joe Koufman:that we can help the clients think through that ecosystem,
Joe Koufman:and that perfect mix of internal and external resources that
Joe Koufman:sometimes the client is too close to it, you know, to be
Joe Koufman:able to really get a fresh set of eyes and perspective from the
Joe Koufman:outside to understand what could be.
Guy Powell:Yeah, now, and, and definitely to support those
Guy Powell:existing or potentially relationships that need to be
Guy Powell:replaced. I definitely see that and, and, and I could see a
Guy Powell:whole lot of different triggers, you know, industry downturn, you
Guy Powell:know, supply chain, whatever those problems are, as well as,
Guy Powell:you know, new hires or whatever were you, you just gotta get a
Guy Powell:good feel for what's going on before you commit to the to
Guy Powell:trying to deliver on a strategy when you realize that, hey, my
Guy Powell:team isn't there. And the team is not only the internal side,
Guy Powell:but it's the external you've got to have that that the capability
Guy Powell:and the chemistry with the exhales. Right, right, right.
Guy Powell:Yeah. Well, Joe, it's been great. I really appreciate it.
Guy Powell:And it was so good to be able to set up our podcast relationship
Guy Powell:for today. Thanks. Thank you. I thought I'd try and figure out a
Guy Powell:way to get all that in there. Our name has become very
Guy Powell:intentional. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think we were
Guy Powell:able to get some chemistry going. So even got some messages
Guy Powell:and, and whatever. But in any case, for the listeners, please
Guy Powell:stay tuned. We've got many many other videos in this series
Guy Powell:coming on the backstory on marketing, please visit
Guy Powell:marketing machine dot pro relevant.com. And if you'd like
Guy Powell:to go there, and you'll be able to download the first chapter of
Guy Powell:my book. And then there's also valuable excerpts and a whole
Guy Powell:bunch of other stuff. And if you liked this podcast, please
Guy Powell:definitely give me give us five stars and that way it'll get
Guy Powell:proliferated out to a whole bunch of other for a whole bunch
Guy Powell:of other folks and other listeners. Joe, thank you so
Guy Powell:much.
Joe Koufman:Hey, thanks so much guy. Appreciate your having me.
