Episode 3
Episode 3: Ethan Chernofsky, Placer.ai
About Ethan:
Ethan is the VP of Marketing for Placer.ai and loves helping businesses unlock the power of location analytics. Prior to Placer, Ethan was the Director of Corporate Marketing at SimilarWeb and the Vice President of Headline Media. Ethan shares his expertise in applying location data to marketing research questions and business goals, especially for retail businesses. Ethan explains how studying location data and asking the right business question drives marketing ROI.
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Guy wants to offer podcast listeners exclusive content from his upcoming book, The Post: Covid Marketing Machine: Prepare your Team to Win. Check out Guy's exclusive offer to access excerpts from the book and receive a free consultation from the ProRelevant team!
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Transcript
Hi, I'm Guy Powell and welcome to the February
Guy Powell:episode of the Backstory on Marketing. If you haven't
Guy Powell:already done so please visit pro relevant.com. And sign up for
Guy Powell:all of these episodes and podcasts. I am the author of the
Guy Powell:upcoming book The Post-COVID Marketing Machine: Prepare Your
Guy Powell:Team to Win. You can find more information on this at my
Guy Powell:website marketing.machine.prorelevant.com.
Guy Powell:Today we're speaking with Ethan churn offski. He is the Vice
Guy Powell:President of Marketing for playster.ai. And prior to play,
Guy Powell:sir, he held senior marketing roles at similar web and
Guy Powell:headline media. Welcome, Ethan.
Ethan Chernofsky:Thank you so much guy. Great to be here.
Guy Powell:Yeah. So glad to have you. I'm always really
Guy Powell:impressed with the place or offering and, and I just find
Guy Powell:that that whole technology to be fascinating. But before we get
Guy Powell:started, tell us a little bit about the genesis of how you got
Guy Powell:into marketing.
Ethan Chernofsky:Sure. So I actually kind of my marketing
Ethan Chernofsky:career started in, in kind of public relations and the PR side
Ethan Chernofsky:of things. And originally I had want, I finished kind of grad
Ethan Chernofsky:school and I wanted to be a journalist and I had offers to
Ethan Chernofsky:go work at a couple of a couple of outlets. And I saw how much
Ethan Chernofsky:those outlets were paying. And we were pregnant with our first
Ethan Chernofsky:child. And I realized that I probably wasn't going to be a
Ethan Chernofsky:journalist. So I went to PR thinking it was the flip side of
Ethan Chernofsky:journalism, obviously, it's far from it. But it was just this
Ethan Chernofsky:really interesting entry point into into marketing and under
Ethan Chernofsky:getting to work with, you know, dozens of really exciting
Ethan Chernofsky:companies and understand how they approach marketing, how
Ethan Chernofsky:they view the building brands, and then taking that that's kind
Ethan Chernofsky:of how my career got kicked off.
Guy Powell:Yeah, interesting. And I guess PR, yeah, the
Guy Powell:opposite of journalism would be maybe PR for like a politician
Guy Powell:or for whatever, something like that. But yeah, PR in the
Guy Powell:business world is definitely like journalists. Well, I don't
Guy Powell:mean to say it's not journalism, but certainly different.
Ethan Chernofsky:It's a it's, it's fascinating, because I
Ethan Chernofsky:think it's your first, any the really big value that comes from
Ethan Chernofsky:starting a career in PR is you are slapped in the face with the
Ethan Chernofsky:wreck, I guess unless you work for like Apple or Uber, you're
Ethan Chernofsky:slapped in the face with the idea that nobody cares. And if
Ethan Chernofsky:the starting point is nobody cares, you need to figure out
Ethan Chernofsky:how to make them care. And that means telling your story in an
Ethan Chernofsky:effective way. It means really thinking about the audience of
Ethan Chernofsky:your audience. It means understanding how to create that
Ethan Chernofsky:win win with the channel you're looking to tell your story
Ethan Chernofsky:through. And so so many of the lessons that you learn in that
Ethan Chernofsky:PR setting are widely applicable as you kind of expand your
Ethan Chernofsky:marketing focus in these kind of in house roles.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, and in reality,
Guy Powell:that's what marketing is all about. And certainly geolocation
Guy Powell:services, you know, makes that even better. So you know, where
Guy Powell:you really then know exactly who your client is. And and almost
Guy Powell:in many cases, you can almost get down to a one to one
Guy Powell:relationship to where you are really personalizing that
Guy Powell:message and that experience, specifically for that person.
Ethan Chernofsky:So it's so it's really interesting, because
Ethan Chernofsky:I think the the geolocation space, and it's kind of widest
Ethan Chernofsky:reach, you have this spectrum. So on the one hand, you do have
Ethan Chernofsky:kind of companies that attempt to enable that, that one to one
Ethan Chernofsky:relationship and kind of location based advertising. And
Ethan Chernofsky:in that case, think, you know, I love Starbucks, I love blueberry
Ethan Chernofsky:muffins. When I walk past to Starbucks, they want to be able
Ethan Chernofsky:to say Ethan, get 50 cents off this blueberry muffin, if you
Ethan Chernofsky:buy a coffee. That is a really interesting kind of channel,
Ethan Chernofsky:there's a lot of value to and it's super fascinating it what's
Ethan Chernofsky:what's really interesting is how different that is from what we
Ethan Chernofsky:do, though we're part of the same space. So place or when you
Ethan Chernofsky:think of when we kind of think of ourselves is really a
Ethan Chernofsky:research platform. It's enabling you to understand what's
Ethan Chernofsky:happening at a macro level, at retailers across the country. So
Ethan Chernofsky:if you think like, you know, people vote with their feet,
Ethan Chernofsky:we're showing you how they vote. But we the The really
Ethan Chernofsky:interesting thing is it's essentially a storytelling
Ethan Chernofsky:platform. So whereas like an advertising platform would say
Ethan Chernofsky:again, how do I reach Ethan when he walks past a Starbucks? We're
Ethan Chernofsky:a platform is giving you all this information about what's
Ethan Chernofsky:happening in the world. And then we're saying to the marketers
Ethan Chernofsky:that utilize it. Okay, now that you have this information, what
Ethan Chernofsky:decisions would you make differently? How would you
Ethan Chernofsky:operate a little bit more effectively? And I think that
Ethan Chernofsky:research orientation has been really fascinating, especially
Ethan Chernofsky:as a marketer working for placing
Guy Powell:well and especially also, you know, you're not
Guy Powell:necessarily just getting you know, a sample size through some
Guy Powell:circles. Have a and it's never large enough. And then here, you
Guy Powell:know, you can basically say, you know, hey, I did this ad. And
Guy Powell:you know, in 45% of the people that we were kind of targeting
Guy Powell:in these regions went to this went to the retail location or
Guy Powell:did something different. And then but over here, something
Guy Powell:else happened that and that that level of information is, is
Guy Powell:incredibly valuable to a marketer as they are now really
Guy Powell:trying to always get that last half a percent 1% 5% better, you
Guy Powell:know, and this, this kind of capability reels that really
Guy Powell:allows them to do that.
Ethan Chernofsky:Yeah, I agree with you completely. I think the
Ethan Chernofsky:fascinating thing is, in so many areas, it is that incremental
Ethan Chernofsky:improvement of, we're doing a really good job, we want to get
Ethan Chernofsky:a little bit better at all these elements. But in so many cases,
Ethan Chernofsky:you're it's just a fundamental shift in how they view a process
Ethan Chernofsky:when you think of something as simple as a trade area. Right.
Ethan Chernofsky:So every retail location, every restaurant has their assumption
Ethan Chernofsky:about who they're reaching, with any given location. And, you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, if you think about five, six years ago, this was a
Ethan Chernofsky:circle, drawn around the space and at a certain mile radius
Ethan Chernofsky:length and said, this is this is what it is, this is who we
Ethan Chernofsky:reach. When you look at the actual true trade areas within
Ethan Chernofsky:our system, you see that, you know, you see that trade area
Ethan Chernofsky:and all this amorphous weirdly shaped glory, and challenges
Ethan Chernofsky:very basic assumptions about how you would operate where you're
Ethan Chernofsky:succeeding where you're missing an opportunity, how close by
Ethan Chernofsky:that opportunity might be, how far you're actually reaching and
Ethan Chernofsky:why. So I think this ability to provide that level of clarity
Ethan Chernofsky:and visibility at the worst case, it's the incremental
Ethan Chernofsky:progress, but in many situations, it's, it's again,
Ethan Chernofsky:it's bringing a lens that provides visibility that just
Ethan Chernofsky:wasn't there before.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And certainly, you know, you
Guy Powell:bring up retail trade area, but the flip side of that is also
Guy Powell:where do I place my stores? And, you know, so you also have them
Guy Powell:the the development side on a, you know, for retail, so that
Guy Powell:they can make sure that the traffic patterns and whatever
Guy Powell:else is really ideal for that location, and for that business
Guy Powell:versus somewhere else. So it really, really fascinating how
Guy Powell:you can use the data?
Ethan Chernofsky:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you think
Ethan Chernofsky:about the lifecycle of the entire lifecycle of a retail
Ethan Chernofsky:location. I'm trying to figure out what site I want to build a
Ethan Chernofsky:shopping center in, drop a traffic pin to understand who's
Ethan Chernofsky:passing by and what are the audiences nearby? And is there
Ethan Chernofsky:an opening? And okay, then we decide there is we build this
Ethan Chernofsky:center, what should should we fill it with? Who should we be
Ethan Chernofsky:able to get this great anchor tenant who has the best cross
Ethan Chernofsky:shopping and CO tenancy patterns with that? Alright, so that
Ethan Chernofsky:Center continues on what marketing events do we want to
Ethan Chernofsky:run to help drive traffic to that center? How do the
Ethan Chernofsky:retailer's within that center better leverage, you know, the
Ethan Chernofsky:data to to make these decisions, but then someone else comes in,
Ethan Chernofsky:and they want to buy that center and make that decision and how
Ethan Chernofsky:to reorient it. And so the whole lifecycle of a low retail
Ethan Chernofsky:location, whether it's the shopping center, the specific
Ethan Chernofsky:retail space itself, the ability to provide value throughout this
Ethan Chernofsky:from the start finish of that lifecycle is one of the things
Ethan Chernofsky:that I think gives the platform a whole lot of power. And it
Ethan Chernofsky:gives us this really interesting viewpoint, to start trying to
Ethan Chernofsky:understand what are the factors that influence success or lack
Ethan Chernofsky:thereof, on a, you know, whether it's by retail segment by
Ethan Chernofsky:retailers, you know, by specific retailer, by region, by type, it
Ethan Chernofsky:makes it really interesting when you can get to that level of
Ethan Chernofsky:granularity.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And, and then not only that, but
Guy Powell:you can also see what's going on with your competitors. So you
Guy Powell:can see you know, what your traffic pattern is, or could be,
Guy Powell:and then you can also see, then, you know, there's a, there's a
Guy Powell:competitive store, you know, a mile away, or in the same
Guy Powell:shopping center, or wherever it is, and you can then start to
Guy Powell:see whether, you know, you're, whether they're advertising or
Guy Powell:your advertising has an impact, but also then, generally how the
Guy Powell:whole category is working. And I think that that information is
Guy Powell:so much better than what you otherwise get. So yeah,
Ethan Chernofsky:it's not even it's the, it's all of a sudden,
Ethan Chernofsky:you're able to view everything through a single lens. So one of
Ethan Chernofsky:the biggest challenges with data is having proper context. And
Ethan Chernofsky:so, you know, we say this at the time, if you're a retailer, in a
Ethan Chernofsky:specific region, and during the pandemic, your visits were down
Ethan Chernofsky:5% Is that good? Is that bad? It means nothing in and of itself.
Ethan Chernofsky:Because if I'm down 5%, but all of my competitors are down 10%
Ethan Chernofsky:I'm doing great. If I'm down 5% my competitors are up 20% I'm
Ethan Chernofsky:getting crushed. And so that contextual understanding of
Ethan Chernofsky:performance and the ability to to then go one level deeper and
Ethan Chernofsky:say, Okay, why? And how do I how do I break this resource down in
Ethan Chernofsky:other ways to give me an indication of what are they
Ethan Chernofsky:doing well, that I'm missing out on where are there opportunities
Ethan Chernofsky:that I might want to focus on in the future? How do I get you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, one of the things I always love is when you think of a
Ethan Chernofsky:concept, we will look at a brand you know, for launches their
Ethan Chernofsky:store in store concept, right? It with with, with Kohl's. When
Ethan Chernofsky:we look at Petco and Lowe's, we're taking that Sephora Kohl's
Ethan Chernofsky:interaction as some sort of benchmark, there's a way to
Ethan Chernofsky:learn from that experience. And that's across retail. And I
Ethan Chernofsky:think what's really fascinating is, if you could learn from
Ethan Chernofsky:other people, if you could understand what competitors are
Ethan Chernofsky:doing, if you could take inspiration from sectors that
Ethan Chernofsky:you're not even operating in, that's what this product gives
Ethan Chernofsky:you the ability to do to almost kind of transport yourself to
Ethan Chernofsky:any retail location and get that insights as if you were visiting
Ethan Chernofsky:the center itself.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And I find that also valuable
Guy Powell:not only for retailers, but the manufacturers that are selling
Guy Powell:in retail and so that they can see that when they run a brand
Guy Powell:ad or the retailer runs a co op ed to see then what the what the
Guy Powell:impact is on traffic patterns. And whether they're actually
Guy Powell:driving people to the store or not. And whether then, you know,
Guy Powell:the overall traffic goes up, maybe you know, any ad write
Guy Powell:rises, raises all boats, but it could be that my ad actually
Guy Powell:gets people into my stores or my my retail outlets better than
Guy Powell:what the competition does. So there's also a value at the at
Guy Powell:the manufacturer level,
Ethan Chernofsky:completely, I had a colleague who put it put
Ethan Chernofsky:it best, someone asked him who gets value out of place your
Ethan Chernofsky:data. And I by the way, obviously, I'm incredibly
Ethan Chernofsky:biased. I think we're the greatest from the space and, you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, data in general, for this for these spaces, I think it's
Ethan Chernofsky:important to kind of give that wider lens. But this colleague
Ethan Chernofsky:said, Walk drive down your street? And how many shopping
Ethan Chernofsky:the main road in your town? How many shopping centers? Do you
Ethan Chernofsky:see? All of those are customers? How many tenants Do you see
Ethan Chernofsky:Filling the spaces in the shopping centers, think of all
Ethan Chernofsky:the products and services that are sold through those tenants,
Ethan Chernofsky:the people who build around it, you know, that's the people who
Ethan Chernofsky:invest in those companies, the people who kind of try to the
Ethan Chernofsky:civic organizations that are attending to attract those
Ethan Chernofsky:retailers into their, into their communities. This is the breath
Ethan Chernofsky:that you can reach. And I think the thing that we one of the
Ethan Chernofsky:elements that we get most excited about is that ability to
Ethan Chernofsky:establish a single language to cross those chasms between and
Ethan Chernofsky:you know, you're bringing up the manufacturing brands is a really
Ethan Chernofsky:important one, we saw this during the pandemic, we had a
Ethan Chernofsky:customer tell us that year over year data, they would have been
Ethan Chernofsky:having a discussion with a major retailer about demand planning.
Ethan Chernofsky:And your your data was kind of you had threw it out the window,
Ethan Chernofsky:because what you're supposed to do with it situation was so
Ethan Chernofsky:different. Yep. There, the point of sale data that they got was,
Ethan Chernofsky:you know, four to six weeks delay. For six weeks, things
Ethan Chernofsky:change so dramatically. And they were looking at visit data and
Ethan Chernofsky:correlating demand with visit data because that they could
Ethan Chernofsky:get, you know, with a three day lag. And so what's so
Ethan Chernofsky:fascinating is in a changing environment, what we've seen the
Ethan Chernofsky:last two years is just this rapidly changing scenario where
Ethan Chernofsky:you need to adapt so quickly. If you I think data helps in any
Ethan Chernofsky:situation. But if you don't have data to help you make those
Ethan Chernofsky:decisions and pivot as effectively as possible, you're
Ethan Chernofsky:going to be over reliant on guesses, and it's going to put
Ethan Chernofsky:you at risk.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And especially nowadays, if
Guy Powell:somebody if your competitor has the tool, and you don't, they
Guy Powell:are absolutely at an advantage. And they and I don't know how
Guy Powell:much difference it would be. But it's it can be significant, you
Guy Powell:know, for retailers. Now, what about other industries? Where
Guy Powell:else would you see the use of of this kind of data?
Ethan Chernofsky:So I think, I think retail is the primary
Ethan Chernofsky:space, but it's all the the spheres of retail. So again, the
Ethan Chernofsky:shopping center, the retail, real estate, the manufacturing
Ethan Chernofsky:companies, the investors, the civic organizations, and so just
Ethan Chernofsky:that it's quite a sizable group of companies. When you think
Ethan Chernofsky:also office real estate, you know, if I'm dealing with
Ethan Chernofsky:multifamily at a large scale, this is going to interesting
Ethan Chernofsky:data, just understanding the shifts in areas. So take
Ethan Chernofsky:something as simple as migration patterns, how different they've
Ethan Chernofsky:been as a result of the pandemic. So really interesting
Ethan Chernofsky:data that we've seen, but also from other sources like urban
Ethan Chernofsky:digs, which looks at leasing patterns in New York City. And
Ethan Chernofsky:you found at certain points during the pandemic, there was
Ethan Chernofsky:this really fascinating shift of people who are a little bit
Ethan Chernofsky:older, maybe had stuck around in major cities a little bit longer
Ethan Chernofsky:than they would have traditionally moving to the
Ethan Chernofsky:suburbs, and that being replaced by younger people who can now
Ethan Chernofsky:afford to move into the city. And what's really interesting
Ethan Chernofsky:here is, if I understand those patterns in those shifts, on an
Ethan Chernofsky:area level, I can identify opportunity. So Raleigh, North
Ethan Chernofsky:Carolina, great proximity to amazing universities. People
Ethan Chernofsky:want to can choose flexibility and therefore emphasize an area
Ethan Chernofsky:with a higher quality of life, they don't have to spend as much
Ethan Chernofsky:living in let's say, San Francisco, they can stay there
Ethan Chernofsky:and still find a really high quality tech job. And that
Ethan Chernofsky:understanding of where those shifts are happening, where that
Ethan Chernofsky:opportunity might exist, it's a really powerful lens that can be
Ethan Chernofsky:used to make much better decisions. For the companies.
Ethan Chernofsky:We're operating at that scale.
Guy Powell:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And very
Guy Powell:interesting, I didn't think about the, you know, the, the
Guy Powell:patterns of how people change and where they move to and from,
Guy Powell:during the pandemic versus pre pandemic, and now maybe, you
Guy Powell:know, post pandemic, so that makes, that makes a lot of
Guy Powell:sense. So, if I'm a retailer, and let's say, um, I don't know,
Guy Powell:Lowe's, or maybe that's not a good example. But if I'm a major
Guy Powell:retailer and got stores around the country, what is their ROI?
Guy Powell:So what, what's the ROI on your data? What is the value to them?
Guy Powell:What is that'd be pretty big, what is,
Ethan Chernofsky:so it's gonna be different values for
Ethan Chernofsky:different groups of the company. So in the ideal scenario, your
Ethan Chernofsky:site selection team is using the product to figure out where
Ethan Chernofsky:should we put the next door? Try to understand which stores are
Ethan Chernofsky:performing well, and which ones aren't. I need to right size
Ethan Chernofsky:because I'm overextended in a certain region, which store do I
Ethan Chernofsky:remove? Do I remove the store that has the highest sales, the
Ethan Chernofsky:lowest sales? Or do I move the store that's cannibalizing the
Ethan Chernofsky:most? And by removing, I'd have the least impact on an overall
Ethan Chernofsky:market? How do I understand performance over time? How do I
Ethan Chernofsky:understand it compared to kind of the key competitors? And that
Ethan Chernofsky:takes us already into kind of that competitive intelligence
Ethan Chernofsky:strategy team? How do I really understanding my performance. So
Ethan Chernofsky:if we try a new initiative, if we how we're doing overall, how
Ethan Chernofsky:is the wider space we're operating in, in general are
Ethan Chernofsky:doing overall. So think for, you know, Lowe's is a great example.
Ethan Chernofsky:Lowe's, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, setting the world on
Ethan Chernofsky:fire in 2020 2021, a lot of those months visits are down
Ethan Chernofsky:year over year. But it's not because they did bad, it's
Ethan Chernofsky:because they just went so high that they when they dropped
Ethan Chernofsky:back, they were still higher than they were before. But the
Ethan Chernofsky:only way to understand that is by having a context for the
Ethan Chernofsky:entire market. Then as a marketer, I want to do other
Ethan Chernofsky:things. I want to know how different campaigns worked in
Ethan Chernofsky:different regions, I want to understand the impact of my
Ethan Chernofsky:competitors campaigns, and what's what's moving the needle
Ethan Chernofsky:there? And understanding how do I figure out which types of
Ethan Chernofsky:activities are really moving the needle for my organization. So
Ethan Chernofsky:this ability to go from that market planning, site selection,
Ethan Chernofsky:real estate team, to the store operations team, to the strategy
Ethan Chernofsky:team, to the marketing team, and enable all of them to have that
Ethan Chernofsky:conversation with the same data. That's one of the biggest
Ethan Chernofsky:pieces. I mean, I'm not telling you anything, you that's going
Ethan Chernofsky:to surprise you. But one of the biggest challenges with with
Ethan Chernofsky:data is that even within an organization, many of us are
Ethan Chernofsky:using different tools. And so I say I'm seeing X percentage
Ethan Chernofsky:change based on this tool, and they say, Well, I don't see that
Ethan Chernofsky:I see something totally different with my tool. So the
Ethan Chernofsky:idea that you have a language that can help traverse those
Ethan Chernofsky:divides, and can be used by all these organizations. I think
Ethan Chernofsky:that's almost, you know, as valuable as anything, you know,
Ethan Chernofsky:we were talking, you know, before the show about, you know,
Ethan Chernofsky:different places in the world in different languages. If you put
Ethan Chernofsky:a, you know, a German speaker, a French speaker, you know, an
Ethan Chernofsky:Italian speaker, and someone who speaks Japanese in the same room
Ethan Chernofsky:and ask them to do its collective task, it's gonna be a
Ethan Chernofsky:lot harder than if everyone's speaking German or English or
Ethan Chernofsky:whatever it may be. And I think that's one of the things we view
Ethan Chernofsky:as a huge long term value is that ability to have that single
Ethan Chernofsky:language.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And way back when I'm sure
Guy Powell:you're familiar with the Kodak brand and Kodak, film and stuff
Guy Powell:like that. And I remember talking to the to the VP of
Guy Powell:research, and he said, you know, what's really bad and what he
Guy Powell:tried to do within the company is have a benchmark and a
Guy Powell:language that everybody can use, so that if everybody gets their
Guy Powell:bonus The CEO also gets his bonus, because he said, what
Guy Powell:happened is everybody made their numbers they all, you know,
Guy Powell:figured out how to game the system. And the CEO says, Well,
Guy Powell:yeah, but sales went down, where's my money. And so to your
Guy Powell:point about using common language across the company is
Guy Powell:critical, because it has to then be something that really aligns
Guy Powell:exactly with the your corporate code with your corporate
Guy Powell:objectives. And if it doesn't, if you're measuring the wrong
Guy Powell:thing, then you know, garbage in garbage out, it's going to be,
Guy Powell:it's not going to be helpful for anybody.
Ethan Chernofsky:Yeah, I think I think company alignment, and I
Ethan Chernofsky:can, you know, it's interesting. So I joined this company, when
Ethan Chernofsky:we were 20 some odd people, today, we're well over 300. And
Ethan Chernofsky:the, the strength you get as an organization, when you are
Ethan Chernofsky:viewing the world, as a unit, and not as lots of disparate
Ethan Chernofsky:elements all pulling in different directions, is a huge
Ethan Chernofsky:asset for us. It's a credit to our leadership, and you know, to
Ethan Chernofsky:the, you know, people who are founders and those who had that
Ethan Chernofsky:initial vision, we're able to pull all of us into that vision.
Ethan Chernofsky:And I think it's anywhere, the more you can create alignment in
Ethan Chernofsky:how you're viewing the world, the better you'll be able to
Ethan Chernofsky:attack it as a as a group.
Guy Powell:Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. So now,
Guy Powell:of course, then there's the all this kind of privacy and
Guy Powell:legislation coming out. Tell us how plates are fits in that and
Guy Powell:what do you see kind of as the future for, for those
Guy Powell:discussions?
Ethan Chernofsky:So I think, again, we kind of touched on
Ethan Chernofsky:this at the top of this, this spectrum of companies and what
Ethan Chernofsky:you're trying to do, you can, you can almost think of it as
Ethan Chernofsky:relating to three core questions. What type of data do
Ethan Chernofsky:you take in? What type of data do you show? What type of data
Ethan Chernofsky:do you make money off of? So again, partially, because this
Ethan Chernofsky:was a key part of our ethos, but also, you know, we're a company
Ethan Chernofsky:that, you know, we only launched in 2018. So GDPR was already a
Ethan Chernofsky:thing, CCPA was already a thing. So we're a privacy by design
Ethan Chernofsky:company, and we don't ingest any personally identifiable
Ethan Chernofsky:information into our system. So we don't take in any personal
Ethan Chernofsky:information, we certainly don't show anything in our platform,
Ethan Chernofsky:you can build in processes to ensure that you know, any place
Ethan Chernofsky:under a certain number of people, you don't show on the
Ethan Chernofsky:platform at all. And so you create these built in
Ethan Chernofsky:limitations so as to account for privacy. And then all we sell is
Ethan Chernofsky:our estimations. And so that's the that's the product
Ethan Chernofsky:ultimately. And in that way, we make sure that we're aligned
Ethan Chernofsky:with privacy interests. And I think what you want to
Ethan Chernofsky:ultimately see in this space is two things, one, regulation that
Ethan Chernofsky:makes sense for the different players within the space. So if
Ethan Chernofsky:I'm, if I want, again, to do that location based advertising,
Ethan Chernofsky:which means I want to know where Ethan is right now. Okay, but
Ethan Chernofsky:then there should be a very specific set of regulations and
Ethan Chernofsky:options and the like. And the same for research companies, you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, that we need to be treated in a very specific way to ensure
Ethan Chernofsky:that our practices are in line with user interest. And I think,
Ethan Chernofsky:the more sophisticated we get about this conversation, the
Ethan Chernofsky:better regulations, we're going to come to, the better products
Ethan Chernofsky:we're going to build. But I also think it's unbelievably
Ethan Chernofsky:important to the simplicity that happens in the privacy debate is
Ethan Chernofsky:not very helpful, because it misses out on the levels of
Ethan Chernofsky:nuance, and what the fact that there is so much opportunity to
Ethan Chernofsky:find that Win Win where you can provide the value without having
Ethan Chernofsky:to infringe on privacy.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and I agree with that, of course, I'm in
Guy Powell:marketing. And I think that I think that advertising messages
Guy Powell:have a value, and people are interested in them. Because at
Guy Powell:the end of the day, they are going to buy something, and it's
Guy Powell:much better to have them more well informed so that they're
Guy Powell:going to have a better customer experience. And they're gonna be
Guy Powell:more satisfied with what they buy, as opposed to buying
Guy Powell:something that they that may not fit. So marketing, to some
Guy Powell:extent is is also about education. And so I think, you
Guy Powell:know, getting that stuff right is critical,
Ethan Chernofsky:but it doesn't what's the value? Ultimately?
Ethan Chernofsky:Yeah, think. Alright, think about Sears. Sears wasn't a
Ethan Chernofsky:stupid company. They were incredibly successful. They were
Ethan Chernofsky:overextended. And therefore, it was really challenging to have
Ethan Chernofsky:to make the move as quickly as they needed to in order to
Ethan Chernofsky:adjust. What if Sears had been able to right size, their
Ethan Chernofsky:properties more slowly over time with data like this? They're
Ethan Chernofsky:likely still around today look at Macy's or JC Penney,
Ethan Chernofsky:companies were amidst these more significant right sizing
Ethan Chernofsky:projects. And they're doing some really strategically and that
Ethan Chernofsky:means that more Macy's are staying open, serving their
Ethan Chernofsky:audiences, keeping the people who have jobs, they're going
Ethan Chernofsky:paying rent to the shopping centers that they're sitting in.
Ethan Chernofsky:It's a net positive but even think about the small business
Ethan Chernofsky:so guy imagine you and I we decide to open our own pizza
Ethan Chernofsky:chain. We'll opened up our first one in Atlanta, Georgia, right,
Ethan Chernofsky:we opened up our second one in a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia, and
Ethan Chernofsky:we're doing well, with both, it's time to open up number
Ethan Chernofsky:three, we're choosing between three locations. The problem is,
Ethan Chernofsky:if we get it right, great, if we get it wrong for a business as
Ethan Chernofsky:small as ours, it's gonna have a massive impact on our company
Ethan Chernofsky:might even close it. So the fact that we can, we can have access
Ethan Chernofsky:to affordable data, not just something that Pizza Hut and
Ethan Chernofsky:Domino's can use, but us and our small pizza chain can use
Ethan Chernofsky:increases the likelihood that we can go from one store to three
Ethan Chernofsky:stores to 10 to 50. And that ability to kind of support that
Ethan Chernofsky:50 to 100 location chain, the smaller ones, even then that
Ethan Chernofsky:creates this much greater diversity is much better ability
Ethan Chernofsky:of smaller businesses to grow and scale and to do so in a
Ethan Chernofsky:sustainable way. That creates a net benefit for the wider
Ethan Chernofsky:economic situation as well.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And fair enough, I, you know, I,
Guy Powell:you're you went more on the research side, which absolutely
Guy Powell:has value and, and definitely see that because, you know, here
Guy Powell:you have an investor, as, as me the pizza owner, and you and the
Guy Powell:pizza owner here in Atlanta. And if we are able to make those
Guy Powell:decisions better, we are going to be able to hire more people.
Guy Powell:And also, you know that that is a benefit not only to those
Guy Powell:people, but to the customers that are interested in what
Guy Powell:we're selling. And so, yeah, that that, that makes a lot of
Guy Powell:sense. And it's interesting, I like the the other point that
Guy Powell:you make is that you're more on the research side, as opposed to
Guy Powell:the execution side. And I think that's a very different are a
Guy Powell:very interesting distinguishing characteristic in terms of what
Guy Powell:you're offering versus what you what you might typically see as
Guy Powell:geolocation services in optimizing my advertising and
Guy Powell:getting them these, these kind of unwanted or maybe not so
Guy Powell:wanted, commercials are believed to be unwanted commercial.
Ethan Chernofsky:Yeah, I think we need to, we need to empower
Ethan Chernofsky:the consumer. I mean, this was, you know, to talk in our kind of
Ethan Chernofsky:advertising, marketing language, how this wasn't all that long
Ethan Chernofsky:ago, we were having a big conversation about native,
Ethan Chernofsky:native advertising. And there were some people who were like,
Ethan Chernofsky:This is the worst thing that's ever happened in the world, and
Ethan Chernofsky:others who were like, This is the greatest The reality was
Ethan Chernofsky:somewhere in between, but we need to take the steps to ensure
Ethan Chernofsky:that consumers, users, viewers, readers, are given enough
Ethan Chernofsky:information so that they understand what's happening in
Ethan Chernofsky:front of them, and maybe they can make those decisions, you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, and that native advertising conversation. No,
Ethan Chernofsky:look, we've been looking at editorial content for years, we
Ethan Chernofsky:didn't ban it, because it's an opinion, we said, we have to
Ethan Chernofsky:make it clear that it's an opinion, but that's okay, we can
Ethan Chernofsky:consume opinion too. So I think if we focus on end user
Ethan Chernofsky:empowerment, giving them easy access to the tools to make
Ethan Chernofsky:their decisions to opt in and out of what they do and don't
Ethan Chernofsky:want, but also that they understand what they're seeing,
Ethan Chernofsky:I think we're going to end up in a much better situation than
Ethan Chernofsky:then attempting to create kind of blanket restrictions that
Ethan Chernofsky:don't necessarily make sense. And most people probably don't
Ethan Chernofsky:want.
Guy Powell:Yeah, well, and, and unfortunately, on legislation
Guy Powell:and regulation, it's it has to do then also with the education
Guy Powell:of the the legislators and the regulators, so that they really
Guy Powell:can understand the difference and the value that's that's
Guy Powell:behind there. Because I think you're right, I mean, some of
Guy Powell:these some of these proposed legislation, and you know,
Guy Powell:they're kind of like, Hey, we're gonna block everything. And, and
Guy Powell:that really doesn't just doesn't make sense. Yeah, absolutely. So
Guy Powell:let's talk about the future where, where now, or what do you
Guy Powell:see as the the promised land in three or four years from now for
Guy Powell:Pacer?
Ethan Chernofsky:I think the there's a couple of things. I
Ethan Chernofsky:think there's three pillars. pillar number one is continuing
Ethan Chernofsky:to build out our own platform. Right. So how do we continue
Ethan Chernofsky:adding features, creating simpler workflows? So I have a
Ethan Chernofsky:specific business question. Here's the tool that helps you
Ethan Chernofsky:answer that specific question as quickly as possible, right. So
Ethan Chernofsky:to put empower our users to get from point A to point B faster
Ethan Chernofsky:than ever before, and to give them more ways, you know, more
Ethan Chernofsky:point A's and point B's to get to. The second level is a big
Ethan Chernofsky:focus on what we kind of our marketplace, which is our
Ethan Chernofsky:marketplace brings in other data sources, so like demographics
Ethan Chernofsky:data into the platform so that they can be layered on top of
Ethan Chernofsky:our platform and more easily accessed and utilized. So this
Ethan Chernofsky:investment in how do we expand the number of perspectives that
Ethan Chernofsky:we can bring into play so that we can understand a space and
Ethan Chernofsky:any setting it's happening in the physical world more
Ethan Chernofsky:effectively. So a simple example. Traffic is down. Year
Ethan Chernofsky:over year in a certain space What if I showed you that there
Ethan Chernofsky:was a massive storm that day, and that's why it was down, I
Ethan Chernofsky:was in more information to get to that decision understanding
Ethan Chernofsky:faster. If I show you a place, and I show you the crime rates
Ethan Chernofsky:around it, and I show you plan developments that are happening,
Ethan Chernofsky:and I show you drive time analysis and all of these other
Ethan Chernofsky:layers, it's only going to enrich your ability to make
Ethan Chernofsky:better decisions based off of the data. So that's a huge focus
Ethan Chernofsky:for us as well. So enhancing our capacity, partnering with more
Ethan Chernofsky:companies that are able to bring in all these new perspectives
Ethan Chernofsky:into the mix, we have this wider view on what's happening. And
Ethan Chernofsky:I'd say the last bit is, is a constant effort to improve those
Ethan Chernofsky:areas that are the pillar of what we do. So how do we get
Ethan Chernofsky:ever better on the data accuracy side? So if we're, we feel like
Ethan Chernofsky:you know, he's got a 5% margin of error? How do we get it to
Ethan Chernofsky:four and a half percent? 4%? excetera? How do we get better
Ethan Chernofsky:at partnering with our customers? So understanding
Ethan Chernofsky:their needs better, being more as invested as we can be at
Ethan Chernofsky:scale? And then the accessibility piece, how do we
Ethan Chernofsky:make it as simple to use, I think one of the things that
Ethan Chernofsky:always is ever present when especially when you talk to more
Ethan Chernofsky:experienced professionals is they'll look at a platform like
Ethan Chernofsky:this, and they go, this is great, but you know, I've never
Ethan Chernofsky:know how to use this, this is too complicated for me. And we,
Ethan Chernofsky:we vet very aggressively push back on this concept, I think,
Ethan Chernofsky:you know, you're learning to utilize data. And there's always
Ethan Chernofsky:going to be space for, you know, consultants and those who enter
Ethan Chernofsky:data science teams, and those who really get it internally and
Ethan Chernofsky:externally. But we, the more we teach people to become familiar
Ethan Chernofsky:and to engage with and to show that, actually, we're kind of
Ethan Chernofsky:constantly dealing with data every single day of our lives,
Ethan Chernofsky:and most of us are using it quite effectively. That level of
Ethan Chernofsky:engagement is just going to increase that conversation we
Ethan Chernofsky:were talking about before, which is just to make the wider
Ethan Chernofsky:ecosystem for data is so much more effective.
Guy Powell:Yeah, no question about it, and and our business.
Guy Powell:More data, accurate data, vetted data, complete data is always
Guy Powell:better than less. And, and I like your point where you are,
Guy Powell:you know, bringing in more pieces to help either, you know,
Guy Powell:all your clients or this potentially, you know, some very
Guy Powell:specific ones, so that they can make those data, make those data
Guy Powell:driven decisions better and be able to place that, you know,
Guy Powell:that pizza, that pizza joint, or pizza joint in Atlanta
Guy Powell:significantly better. Because I that is that's what everybody
Guy Powell:wants, I mean, if I'm going to invest in data, and I'm going to
Guy Powell:pay, you know, whatever it is, I want to make sure I'm getting
Guy Powell:return on it. And I want to in in an ideal scenario, I want to
Guy Powell:be able to use it in as many places as I can, and then be
Guy Powell:able to take as good value as I can. And each one of those
Guy Powell:different, you know, operation or operational areas that that
Guy Powell:might be where it might be valuable.
Ethan Chernofsky:Yeah, no, absolutely. I think one of the
Ethan Chernofsky:things we talked about quite a bit is this the the kind of the,
Ethan Chernofsky:the nice to have, and you hear this as a vendor very often, if
Ethan Chernofsky:you've ever worked, if you've ever kind of worked with or a
Ethan Chernofsky:technology company, you'll talk to a company in the last few
Ethan Chernofsky:Well, are you a need? Or are you a nice to have? And I I have
Ethan Chernofsky:increasingly increasingly resent the question because if you look
Ethan Chernofsky:at retail, specifically, look at Target and Walmart. In the midst
Ethan Chernofsky:of the pandemic, they had grocery delivery, buy online,
Ethan Chernofsky:pick up in store, curbside pickup stuff that they were able
Ethan Chernofsky:to roll out instantly. They didn't make it up. Now, they had
Ethan Chernofsky:been investing in these capabilities for years and years
Ethan Chernofsky:prior having a sense of where retail was going what they would
Ethan Chernofsky:need. And essentially, they were constantly investing in the nice
Ethan Chernofsky:to have where is the future? Because if it's a need, you're
Ethan Chernofsky:too late, you should have been investing in this before. And I
Ethan Chernofsky:think the more we educate, whether it's retailers,
Ethan Chernofsky:technology companies, whoever else marketers operations, you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, market planning, learning to live in the nice to have is
Ethan Chernofsky:how you stay ahead of the curve.
Guy Powell:Yeah, and actually, there is a really good article,
Guy Powell:I'll have to send it to you the from on Steph Curry. And, and it
Guy Powell:sounds like you may have seen it, but the article is just it's
Guy Powell:he his goal is to do much, much, much better on getting three
Guy Powell:pointers and he practices but he is he practices so that he gets
Guy Powell:his margin of error is down into like the one or two inches he
Guy Powell:could be three or four inches off, but he wants to get his
Guy Powell:margin of error on that basket. are going through the hoop by
Guy Powell:over two inches. And what's interesting is to your nice to
Guy Powell:haves versus your need to have is that the top performers think
Guy Powell:of things like that as a need to have because I have to keep
Guy Powell:getting better. And I can't just stay the same I have to get
Guy Powell:better and better he has to get like, you know, a millimeter a
Guy Powell:millimeter a millimeter on average better. And the best
Guy Powell:performers realize that that that want to have is not a want
Guy Powell:to have it as a need to have because they they have to then
Guy Powell:stay ahead of the game. And and so then I think you're right I
Guy Powell:think place her is one of those things. It's not a it's not a
Guy Powell:you know, a nice to have it as a need to have for exactly those
Guy Powell:reasons.
Ethan Chernofsky:No, I think you I love I love the Steph
Ethan Chernofsky:Curry example. You know even it's interesting, I was having a
Ethan Chernofsky:conversation about this with another marketer have you think
Ethan Chernofsky:of the brilliance of the warriors, is they built a team
Ethan Chernofsky:around something that used to be nice side world players. So
Ethan Chernofsky:three point shooting thing, Steph Curry's dad, great three
Ethan Chernofsky:point shooter, there's a wonderful role player alongside
Ethan Chernofsky:some great players. Were the main pieces. Steph Curry Klay
Ethan Chernofsky:Thompson, these three point shooters became the core of a
Ethan Chernofsky:strategy. And they said are how do we build around this
Ethan Chernofsky:strength? I think increasingly what we want to see in retail,
Ethan Chernofsky:but this applies to any business is understanding. What are your
Ethan Chernofsky:strengths? What are the things you do really well? How do you
Ethan Chernofsky:measure those things? How do you kind of measure improvements?
Ethan Chernofsky:But how do you build around those strengths? The fact you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, it's interesting one of them one of the most fascinating
Ethan Chernofsky:conversations we've had in the retail space is off price retail
Ethan Chernofsky:and omni channel, I think where we were in 2020 Burlington
Ethan Chernofsky:stores closed their ecommerce site A month later, the pandemic
Ethan Chernofsky:hits every article is basically like Burlington, you morons. You
Ethan Chernofsky:are so out of touch, say goodbye to Burlington. Within a year
Ethan Chernofsky:Burlington, his numbers are higher than they've ever been.
Ethan Chernofsky:They're crushing. They're one of the best performing retailers in
Ethan Chernofsky:this space. And that takeaway isn't that ecommerce is bad or
Ethan Chernofsky:omni channel is bad. It's just that Burlington ecommerce
Ethan Chernofsky:shouldn't be Macy's, e commerce or target e commerce or Amazon.
Ethan Chernofsky:It should be Burlington, e commerce. And the more companies
Ethan Chernofsky:utilize data, their data, other people's data to understand who
Ethan Chernofsky:they are and what they should be in their market. That's where
Ethan Chernofsky:success comes take Amazon as well. Look at Amazon's grocery
Ethan Chernofsky:push. Amazon buys Whole Foods. Is it the greatest success we've
Ethan Chernofsky:ever seen? Probably not. Did it help define Amazon, Amazon Go
Ethan Chernofsky:and Amazon Fresh which are proving to be far more Amazon
Ethan Chernofsky:ish in their nature and likely a better long term solution for
Ethan Chernofsky:what they want to provide? Absolutely. And so this ability
Ethan Chernofsky:to kind of understand yourself test things, but build around
Ethan Chernofsky:your core built around your strength? That's what's going to
Ethan Chernofsky:drive a lot of great things in the retail space.
Guy Powell:Yeah, absolutely. And even Walmart's acquisition
Guy Powell:of jets initially. I don't know whether but they certainly have
Guy Powell:been able to get their ecommerce going. And I think they are
Guy Powell:going to give Amazon as hard as it is they are going to give
Guy Powell:Amazon a good run for the money on the on the E commerce side.
Ethan Chernofsky:Completely. We I mean, I love that the Walmart
Ethan Chernofsky:jet example to me is incredible, because it is was the
Ethan Chernofsky:acquisition successful? If you just read the acquisition of
Ethan Chernofsky:jet? Probably not. Did it make Walmart amazing at ecommerce?
Ethan Chernofsky:Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that that's a company that, you
Ethan Chernofsky:know, we don't always think of as being super innovative, but
Ethan Chernofsky:constantly investing and trying to figure out what their future
Ethan Chernofsky:looks like. And that's why they are still such a massive retail
Ethan Chernofsky:giant. That's why we even think of them as capable of competing
Ethan Chernofsky:with Amazon. It's because of that investment and that focus
Ethan Chernofsky:on innovation.
Guy Powell:Well, and that's kind of where the where Steph
Guy Powell:Curry's example comes in, it's the best, always striving to do
Guy Powell:slightly better. So but anyway, before we close, is there any
Guy Powell:one big message that you'd like to get across? I'd love to keep
Guy Powell:talking to you. Because I think there's really good stuff. But
Guy Powell:at some point, we have to close. So is there any one big message
Guy Powell:that you'd otherwise like to get get across?
Ethan Chernofsky:I think the data accessibility and the data
Ethan Chernofsky:conversation, we need to start embracing that everyone in the
Ethan Chernofsky:organization needs to access data. And the more we do this,
Ethan Chernofsky:the more great ideas we're going to come up with, the better
Ethan Chernofsky:we're going to be able to embrace data in the future, and
Ethan Chernofsky:the better decisions we're going to make.
Guy Powell:Yeah, I agree with that. You know, data
Guy Powell:transparency and data, data is is like a liquid and if it gets
Guy Powell:across to everywhere, then that That is that is ideal and, and I
Guy Powell:think to your point that using the same data across the entire
Guy Powell:organization really, really makes a lot of sense. So
Guy Powell:unfortunately, I do have to close this out but Ethan, thank
Guy Powell:you really so much. Thank you, thank you. It's been awesome I
Guy Powell:you know, I'm a definite fan of the of this have the data and
Guy Powell:the research the components that you that you provide and and it
Guy Powell:certainly helped to educate me and hopefully, you know, the
Guy Powell:audience will also see the same thing. So in any case, then
Guy Powell:please visit place or.ai place or.ai And then you'll find a lot
Guy Powell:more information on how you can use this geocentric data to your
Guy Powell:advantage especially in retail but there are certainly many
Guy Powell:many other applications. And then lastly, please stay tuned
Guy Powell:for many other videos in this series on the Backstory of
Guy Powell:Marketing. Please visit marketingmachine.prorelevant.com/getting-started.
Guy Powell:That's a mouthful, but marketingmachine.prorelevant.com/getting-started.
Guy Powell:So Ethan, thank you so much.
Ethan Chernofsky:Thank you, Guy. So much fun to do this.
